M109 Rider Forums banner
1 - 20 of 24 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
332 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 · (Edited)
I have read a lot of things about TREs on this site

1. Improve lower gear performance.
2. May cause engine knock/pinging.
3. Improves engine surge.
4. Improves gas mileage
5. Reduces gas mileage.

So I wanted to discuss my experience with the JSD-3M TRE. First I definately feel the performance increase. I was all smiles about that. It felt quite a bit stronger. I noticed a new sound coming from the engine not really a knock or a ping more like a tapping. It was noticible in all the gears until I was going fast enough that the wind noise took over. The bike was more difficult to handle when going slow. I have about 400ft of dirt driveway and I found it difficult to manage. The engine wanted to pull hard or slow down hard not much in between. I relate this to surging and throttle sensitivity. I didn't notice much change in gas mileage but I did start trying to get better gas mileage recently and with driving habits saw 20% increase. I don't know if this is related to the TRE or not.

I decided to pull off the TRE just to see if I was imagining these things and wow what a difference. First of all the engine does not feel at strong. I believe the TRE does improve the performance of the bike in lower gears. Here comes the but... The tapping sound is virtually non existant. I can hear it in 4th gear as expected but not the lower gears. The bike is much more managable in the lower gears. I find it much easier to ride on the dirt road. The engine hard pull is significantly less making the throttle less sensitive and it seems to make changing gears easier. The bike is more enjoyable to ride now especially in traffic. I don't have a Fuel Injection controller so I might have been able to adjust out some of the throttle sensitivity and maybe the tapping sound. I don't really know much about FI controllers or what to expect from them.

Even though I have less power I prefer the bike without the TRE. Anybody had similar results?

Edit:
I did change the plugs to 1 step colder to see if that would effect the tapping noise but noticed no difference in the sound.
 

·
Radio Active Member
2007 Candy Sonoma Red
Joined
·
23,434 Posts
Not sure what the tapping noise is if it's not spark knock, but you did prove why Suzuki retards the timing in the lower gears to begin with. It was supposed to make the bike more manageable at lower speeds, but most says it makes it more manageable with a TRE installed. Mine is a bear on gravel or dirt with or without a TRE, so I never could say it was any more or less rideable with it. It does boost performance so logic would say it would be harder to ride on less than perfect roads.

I always thought it was odd that they retard the timing to reduce torque, then install a SET valve to pick torque up. Seems to contradict what they are trying to do.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
332 Posts
Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Not sure what the tapping noise is if it's not spark knock, but you did prove why Suzuki retards the timing in the lower gears to begin with. It was supposed to make the bike more manageable at lower speeds, but most says it makes it more manageable with a TRE installed. Mine is a bear on gravel or dirt with or without a TRE, so I never could say it was any more or less rideable with it. It does boost performance so logic would say it would be harder to ride on less than perfect roads.

I always thought it was odd that they retard the timing to reduce torque, then install a SET valve to pick torque up. Seems to contradict what they are trying to do.
Since the tapping noise went away when the TRE was removed I suspect strongly that it is engine knock. I too have seen many people say it is more managable with the TRE. For me the difference was quite obvious.

I had a private message from a person that said managability/surge significantly improved with a Bully FI controller. That bike had no TRE. Do you have a FI Controller?

Ya that whole SET value thing is strange. I wonder if it may be more for the exhaust note and the rest is marketing. In noticed that the exhaust note changed (TRE installed) when switching from Neutral to 1st gear at idle. I was guessing the SET value changed position.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
219 Posts
yea i also have gipro with ATRE , i went from a 9 to 10 on the spark plug it did not help with the spark knock. so i turned it off and went back to a 8.
i think there is a reason why they retard the spark.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,719 Posts
My opinion is use a TRE to advance your timing for better lower gear performance and add a fuel controller to enrichen the lower rpm range in all gears so as to minimize any engine ping and enhance performance throughout the rpm range. Sometimes a compromise is the best of all worlds :bigthumbsup:
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
246 Posts
I just add a TRE last month, but it's been to snowy to ride :mad:. Today's high was 16. I have 6 to 8 weeks or more before I'll be able to really check it out.:drool::drool::drool:

I've only started it in the garage and shifted into first. I did hear a difference in the exhaust but no ping or knock yet.:dontknow:
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
65 Posts
Why not just get the switchable one?
:agree: The switchable TRE is the way to go. (although I don't have one) The added FI controller (bully) did not solve the problem. helps, but not enough.

I am convinced the issue has to be spark knock, because I tried some octane booster and the sound goes almost completely away using it.

For those who have the sound... what octane fuel are you using? I run 91, highest I can get. Makes the noise no matter what brand of fuel I use.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
332 Posts
Discussion Starter · #12 ·
Why not just get the switchable one?
That's an option. The GI-Pro looks pretty handy that way.

I will bet it is because their bikes are timed differently than the M class to begin with.
Yup, these engines are a little more different than I originally thought.

I just add a TRE last month, but it's been to snowy to ride.Today's high was 16. I have 6 to 8 weeks or more before I'll be able to really check it out.:drool::drool::drool:

I've only started it in the garage and shifted into first. I did hear a difference in the exhaust but no ping or knock yet.:dontknow:
I've put almost 1800 miles on in the last 2 months. Weather is much more agreeable here in Texas. The knock/ping noise is present only under load like a real knock. If you have a windshield it will make it easier to hear the noise also.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
332 Posts
Discussion Starter · #13 ·
The switchable TRE is the way to go. (although I don't have one) The added FI controller (bully) did not solve the problem. helps, but not enough.

I am convinced the issue has to be spark knock, because I tried some octane booster and the sound goes almost completely away using it.

For those who have the sound... what octane fuel are you using? I run 91, highest I can get. Makes the noise no matter what brand of fuel I use.
I'm running 93 octane here. I haven't tried a lower octane to see if the noise gets worse. You mentioned the Bullt FI controller, that it helps. How did the noise change? Is it quieter or did the noise change in other ways?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
100 Posts
Octane

Octane needs to be the best you can get for the 1800. But try to find a station that the pump has a seperate hose for each grade. If you fill up at a pump that uses one hose for all grades you are not getting much high grade unless the vehicle before you purchased high grade. A single hose pump uses one pump located at the bottom of the gas pump for all grades, so there is one gal of reg in the pump plus what ever is in the long hose from the pump that you will get before you get high grade. ;)
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
87 Posts
Octane needs to be the best you can get for the 1800. But try to find a station that the pump has a seperate hose for each grade. If you fill up at a pump that uses one hose for all grades you are not getting much high grade unless the vehicle before you purchased high grade. A single hose pump uses one pump located at the bottom of the gas pump for all grades, so there is one gal of reg in the pump plus what ever is in the long hose from the pump that you will get before you get high grade. ;)
hhmm..never thought about that..thanks for for the heads-up. As I use premium grade for my nissan 300ZX.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
332 Posts
Discussion Starter · #16 ·
Octane needs to be the best you can get for the 1800. But try to find a station that the pump has a seperate hose for each grade. If you fill up at a pump that uses one hose for all grades you are not getting much high grade unless the vehicle before you purchased high grade. A single hose pump uses one pump located at the bottom of the gas pump for all grades, so there is one gal of reg in the pump plus what ever is in the long hose from the pump that you will get before you get high grade. ;)
I have never thought of that either. If we do get 1 gallon of 87 octane and a 4 gallon fillup (at least for me) that represents a 1.5 octane drop. So 93 becomes 91.5. Very interesting!
 

·
Radio Active Member
2007 Candy Sonoma Red
Joined
·
23,434 Posts
Since the tapping noise went away when the TRE was removed I suspect strongly that it is engine knock. I too have seen many people say it is more managable with the TRE. For me the difference was quite obvious.

I had a private message from a person that said managability/surge significantly improved with a Bully FI controller. That bike had no TRE. Do you have a FI Controller?

Ya that whole SET value thing is strange. I wonder if it may be more for the exhaust note and the rest is marketing. In noticed that the exhaust note changed (TRE installed) when switching from Neutral to 1st gear at idle. I was guessing the SET value changed position.
I have the Cobra FI2000R, and it definitely runs smoother with it. The engine also gets smoother, as in less jumpy on/off throttle transition, as you get some miles on it.

And as was mentioned, it could be a C model is harder to manage on gravel roads because you produce more low end torque too. If I had any more, I'd have to walk it up gravel roads. :D

A friend and I were discussing exhaust tuning just today, and he made the same comment about sound. He thinks it's as much to meet federal sound level standards as it is for actual tuning. I tend to agree, since none of the aftermarket exhausts use it and they run just fine.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
158 Posts
do you or dont you

have been thinking about getting tre myself and love the idea :drool:but engine damage that is something I have not considered,run on 95 octane so spark knock if it is down to fuel would be miminal. so good idea or bad one to balance up the timing on lower gears.

keep it upright
robert
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
332 Posts
Discussion Starter · #19 ·
have been thinking about getting tre myself and love the idea :drool:but engine damage that is something I have not considered,run on 95 octane so spark knock if it is down to fuel would be miminal. so good idea or bad one to balance up the timing on lower gears.
It seems that every engine is different so you basically have to try it. I don't know it 95 octane will prevent the knock. I have a problem calling it "balancing up" the timing. When you put on a TRE you are advancing the timing in the lower gears from the factory setting. They call them timing "retard eliminators" inferring that the factory did something that the TRE corrects. I have heard many different explanations of why Suzuki sets the timing the way they do but I don't know if any of them are correct. The minimum octane on these engines is 91 which to me means they are prone to knock and my engine seems to knock when I have the TRE on it. My personal experience means I will leave the TRE off. If I ever get a FI controller I may try the TRE again.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
158 Posts
f1 then

yep actually that is the conclusion I have come too, F1 controller on my wish list as well, but would love to know why Suzuki retarded the lower gears seems like one of those mystical questions that is going to bug the hell of me ... but will try it at some point for sure :bigthumbsup:8)

keep smiling
robert
 
1 - 20 of 24 Posts
This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.
Top