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Discussion Starter · #1 · (Edited)
First off... a big thanks to Lamonster, Listan1, JUtah and BigpapaM109 for all the clutch-related pix, how-tos and numerous helpful posts over the past few years. :bow: Having read all of it and with all that info socked away upstairs, this undertaking was a pleasant, rewarding breeze! :a18:

I tore into my clutch for two main reasons... reassurance that I wouldn't be left stranded with a backed-off tubular nut :cus: and the clutch shudder at medium to high-RPM takeoff from a standing start was getting scary. :yikes: And like Zoom, I also like taking things apart just for the heck of it. :D I pulled my clutch apart down to the primary drive and then some. I noticed no abnormal wear and the tubular nut was tight as a drum. Everything was totally saturated with oil... nothing dry. Even with 2 1/2 years/20K+ miles on my 2006, the OEM clutch springs, driven plates and drive plates were well within Suzuki specs (mic'd according to the service limits in the service manual), although the OEM clutch springs sure felt abnormally squishy compared to the new MTCs. There was no bluing on the driven plates and no wayward pieces of metal or shavings were found. I found some black, sludgy deposits on the inner walls of the primary gear assembly but that's normal considering centrifugal force slings oil-saturated friction material gunk off the clutch drive plates and there isn't much in the way of drainage inside the cover. I didn't do the Bluey fix because I haven't noticed any abnormal vibrations or rattling noise related to the clutch hub and nothing unusual was seen when I tore into it.






The best way to soak your plates... overnight in a sealed container. Thanks for the idea Froggy! :bigthumbsup: And thanks Oil Doc for the quick delivery of the Amsoil! :a18:


OEM clutch spring on the left, MTC spring on the right...


Used OEM spring, well within the service limit of 1.92". No, I haven't tested tension yet...



MTC clutch spring for benchmark value...


Now for some interesting stuff...


Tubular nut:
How can the tubular nut back off from the threaded shaft of the primary gear assembly when that nut is captured by a big steel thrust washer that is held in place by the clutch sleeve hub assembly which is held in place by a spring washer and hub nut that is torqued to 68.5 lb-ft of torque? :dontknow: The tolerance between the thrust washer and tubular nut must be less than a 10 thousandth of an inch. I'm thinking that maybe some tubular nuts are coming loose because the threaded shaft in the primary gear assembly sticks out farther than mine does which would create more space between the tubular nut and thrust washer allowing the nut more wiggle room to back off. Again, that space on mine was less than the width of a human hair. Maybe that's why mine hasn't back off? :dontknow: Would be interesting to see how much space is between these two parts on other 109s that have encountered the tubular nut problem. Here's what mine looks like...















Spring washer:
On page 3-95 of my service manual, it reads...
Install the clutch sleeve hub assembly (5) onto the countershaft.
Install the spring washer (6).
Note:
The conical curve side of the spring washer (6) faces outside.
Hmmmm... when I disassembled mine, this spring washer was installed backwards! I reassembled it the way it the way I found it... backwards according to the manual. Wondering what difference that makes. :dontknow:

Clutch plate tab alignment:
This one is really interesting... If you look carefully at photos of my OEM clutch assembly and photos of others OEM assemblies (like Listan1), the last driven plate is installed with the outer tabs one off from the other driven plates' tabs. I'm not sure what the purpose is here... maybe to limit the depth of the stack in one direction or the other? Maybe to purposely block oil flow? :dontknow: Here's how mine looked...


Here a photo of Listan1's OEM...


Now if you take a close look at all photos in the service manual, the tabs on last driven plate are aligned with the tabs on all the other driven plates. So that is exactly how I reassembled mine... with all tabs aligned. You can clearly see the difference in these photos...




Anyway... I've taken her out for a few spins doing rush hour clutching, launches, partial clutch parking lot maneuvers and everything else I could think of and all I can say is... WOW! :hot: :hot: :hot: What a difference a new clutch and MTC springs make. Increased effort at the lever is negligible (that was my biggest concern), the clutch is smoooooth when you want to ease it out and it also launches hard and positive when you so desire. :bigthumbsup: Again, thanks to those who previously undertook this Cycle House clutch and MTC springs effort and provided photos, testimonials and how-tos... money WELL spent and I got a :edit: eating grin for doing it all myself.
Time will tell if the shudder on take-off is really gone... I'm betting it is, due solely to the stiffer MTC springs. :doorag:
 

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excellant detailed pics of installation also very good info on the specs:bigthumbsup:
 

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I was looking for pictures of a Craftsman rolling mechanics stool, but I didn't see one? :dontknow: :D

And I had to dig out the service manual and go through pages of clutch disassembly and reassembly pictures, just for the heck of it. A couple things I can't explain, as you pointed out they sort of conflict with the manual.

That spring washer, I'm not sure they describe the orientation that clearly. To me, it's reading to have the cup side of the washer facing in, like you placed a salad bowl on there with the bottom of it facing out. I really don't see how it would matter though, it would exert the same tension since it's fully captured.

The manual definitely shows the tabs on the drive and driven plates all oriented into the same slot. I'm wondering if that could be why some have the dry clutch problem too.

I can't find a picture that gives good reference to how close the clutch basket assembly should sit to the tubular nut. But if it has much space, adding another thrust washer could be some cheap insurance on holding it in place so it can't back off. It may loosen, but it couldn't move out enough to counteract the clutch release mechanism.

I found this interesting too. I don't recall seeing those small radiused areas where the hub spring hits either the inner hub face the inner spacer on other clutches. I thought they were just square cuts on the ends.

And notice the radius is just one one side of the slot or on the inner spacer, but it doesn't appear to be on both.





Overall, fantastic job of describing what you did and what you found, and great pictures too. This one is getting bookmarked. :D
 

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An outstanding job. That was one of the best write-ups in awhile. I really enjoyed it. Well thought out and presented. I'll be saving this one also. JUtah had an excellent thread a couple of weeks ago on back cutting the gears. I saved that as well. :bigthumbsup: :clap2:
 

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Great write up, but I expect nothing less from you. :bigthumbsup::bigthumbsup: Those are some super crisp pictures also.
 

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Good thoughts by everyone and a great write up for people not in the know. The conical washer really does not matter, however, I have a GSXR1000 engine going back together and it says to face the curved side in also---but, they do not use a tubular nut. Just some thoughts.
 

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A few things to add to your findings seapup...

(1) First, after looking at your clutch hub pictures and reading Zoom's post I too am baffled as to why there seems to be a small radius extension along the pressure plate retaining walls. I can't remember now if mine had that or not???

(2) Second, I too was curious about the whole situation with the spring washer and after a failed attempt to make heads or tails out of the information provided in the manual (ie. if you look closely the statement in the manual contradicts that of the picture diagram given as reference for the placement of this washer...damn Suzuki) so I called a close friend of mine who is a well-known transmission specialist is my area. He explained that due to the design of this transmission it didn't matter which way the spring washer was installed and as Zoom said, "it would exert the same tension since it's fully captured".

(3) Third, the clutch plate tab alignment was a stroke of genius! Interesting that you caught that as I missed it myself while disassembling the clutch. However, I followed the manual to the "T" when reassembling everything so now all tabs are properly aligned with one another. I agree with you full-heartedly that this could be an overlying cause to many of the dry-clutch issues fellow members are experiencing.

(4) Finally, I'm really glad you pointed out the clearance condition of the thrust washer with the tubular nut as this makes total sense to me. My tubular nut was solid as a rock when I dissembled everything and is the reason why I left it alone. However, I can see how enough gap between the two could provide enough..."wiggle room" as it was so eloquently put...he he" to allow the nut to back off just the right amount to engage the clutch.

Great write-up seapup and I really appreciate all the pictures. It seems many of us are still learning something new with each tear down! :bigthumbsup:​
 

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Nice Job Pup... and some interesting finds.... The thing that MOST surprises me is how good your clutch hub looks...

I have taken 2 of them from my M109, and 1 of them from Joe's and all 3 had the same metal fatigue / damage in the spring carriers.

The service manual has a nice PICTURE of that spring washer that I use to put it back together... Their verbiage to me is a little confusing.

On the clutch plates, again a good find. To be honest when I took mine apart for the first time, I just took it apart. I didn't really pay attention to how that last plate was inserted because the manual clearly showed how it went back together. Now I wish I had looked (Curiosity).

Anyway, good job bro!
:beer2:
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
I was looking for pictures of a Craftsman rolling mechanics stool, but I didn't see one? :dontknow: :D
I was thinking about using the stool, but didn't want to get it dirty.


And I had to dig out the service manual and go through pages of clutch disassembly and reassembly pictures, just for the heck of it. A couple things I can't explain, as you pointed out they sort of conflict with the manual.

That spring washer, I'm not sure they describe the orientation that clearly. To me, it's reading to have the cup side of the washer facing in, like you placed a salad bowl on there with the bottom of it facing out. I really don't see how it would matter though, it would exert the same tension since it's fully captured.
It's the other way around. Check the 2nd diagram on page 3-97... cup side faces out when they say, "conical curve side of spring washer faces outside". And I actually did it this way for that part of the installation (the wave washer). I agree, the description is more than confusing and I don't see how any one way makes a difference. :D

The manual definitely shows the tabs on the drive and driven plates all oriented into the same slot. I'm wondering if that could be why some have the dry clutch problem too.
I don't know if it would hold more oil in or less oil due to better drainage, but thought I'd give it a try. Worst that can happen is I fry the clutch and spend a few hundred $s buying new plates. Best that can happen is the clutch runs cooler and cleaner due to freshly filtered oil instead of all that gunk trapped inside. :bigthumbsup:

I can't find a picture that gives good reference to how close the clutch basket assembly should sit to the tubular nut. But if it has much space, adding another thrust washer could be some cheap insurance on holding it in place so it can't back off. It may loosen, but it couldn't move out enough to counteract the clutch release mechanism.
I don't know how to properly explain this in my current sleepy state. :-\ Looking at the primary gear assembly... you have the primary gear on the backside and a threaded shaft on the frontside. The tubular nut screws onto this threaded shaft. That shaft also has a bearing pressed in the center of it. I'm thinking that on some 109s, either that whole shaft sticks out too far or the inner race of the bearing is too wide. If the race is too wide, the thrust washer would sit on the race instead of the end of the shaft. You can clearly see the discoloration on the end of the shaft on my bike from the washer contact. It wouldn't matter either way if that tubular nut was staked from the get-go at the factory. Mine wasn't and I doubt anyone else's is either. But the one difference is that mine had no gap between washer and nut. Something changed between the early production 109s and the latter. Mine was one of the 1st off the line. I would REALLY love to tear into a 109 that had the tubular nut come loose. Wish I had one here right now to play with! :-[

I found this interesting too. I don't recall seeing those small radiused areas where the hub spring hits either the inner hub face the inner spacer on other clutches. I thought they were just square cuts on the ends.

And notice the radius is just one one side of the slot or on the inner spacer, but it doesn't appear to be on both.
Good eye there bro! I was just looking at Bluey fixed hubs and noticed that mine is very different! There are 3 full-length springs and 3 short springs. All 109s have this for progression. But on mine, one end of each spring is shimmed. The other end of the spring is buffered by a radius cut on the inner disc. The purpose of the shims is to limit the travel of the inner disc without damaging the outer hub. That said, the shimmed ends face each other. I think this difference combined with letting off the throttle immediately when the shudder happens is why I have no damage to the hub. :bigthumbsup:
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
Great job on the write up and glad you love the setup. As far as the conical washer, it makes no difference on how it is in there, per James McCoy. Mine was in backwards as well and James has said he sees them both ways. I put mine in per my write up on my page. Also, the manual has the conical washer picture showing different then their description.
Yeah, I sat there looking at the bike and the manual, scratched my head for a few minutes and thought, "Huh? What the heck?" And put it back the way it came out.
 

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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
A few things to add to your findings seapup...

(1) First, after looking at your clutch hub pictures and reading Zoom's post I too am baffled as to why there seems to be a small radius extension along the pressure plate retaining walls. I can't remember now if mine had that or not???.....​
I'm not sure I understand what you mean by, "pressure plate retaining walls". Do you mean the end of the threaded shaft that the tubular nut screws onto?
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
Nice Job Pup... and some interesting finds.... The thing that MOST surprises me is how good your clutch hub looks...

I have taken 2 of them from my M109, and 1 of them from Joe's and all 3 had the same metal fatigue / damage in the spring carriers.
I know the majority here thinks the damage is due to the springs rattling around at or near idle. I've always found that a little hard to swallow especially when photos show the damage at the ends of the springs vs. the sides. When you think about the purpose of the clutch hub, it makes more sense that the damage is caused by hard accel/decel/accel while in gear and how many times it endures the "shudder" condition and how long the rider "rides it out" vs. pulling the clutch lever and letting off the throttle. The shudder start happening on my bike last summer. It's happened 10+ times, but less than 20. The 1st few times, it took me by surprise and it was VERY violent. I conditioned myself to anticipate it and the few times it reoccurred, I let off the throttle immediately. I took a magnifying glass to the hub and saw 3 spots where one end of the springs left marks. The damage wasn't anything near what others have posted in photos, but it's there bro. Mechanically/technically, I know what/where the shudder is. The key is why. Nothing has changed on my bike over time. Time is the key. Time equals wear. It's either weak clutch springs or dry clutch pack (or both). While my pack was completely saturated with oil when I took it apart, it is possible that it was temporarily dry each time the shudder occurred. Well... I have stiffer springs and just maybe that plate tab alignment thing will help with the oiling. I hope I fixed it and don't have to dig in again until 2nd gear goes South. :D I was also amazed at how clean everything was inside. I mean REALLY clean. I'm going to chalk that one up to using Mobil 1 4T since the 500 mile mark. Of course, I just jumped on the Amsoil bandwagon as of this clutch R&R. :D I'm babbling now... time for sleep. :eek:
 

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I'm not sure I understand what you mean by, "pressure plate retaining walls". Do you mean the end of the threaded shaft that the tubular nut screws onto?
No buddy I was referring to the small radial indention in the clutch pressure plate where the dampening springs seat beneath the retaining tabs. It's the same as Zoom was referring to.
 

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Tore into my clutch last week

Absolutely fantastic Seapup!!! Even for one such as me, who has not placed a wrench on my 9, I am seriously contemplating knocking the cobwebs off the tool box and charge up my compressor and buy a micronometer! I can't think of too many things that would give me more joy than to be confident enough to unshackle myself from the corporate fixers and do a clutch and other things myself. If I would have had the guts I would be replacing my cracked secondary housing as I write instead of trying to get Zuk to remedy my problem! Now that I have the Busa in my garage, I will be more adventurous in the future, knowing I have a backup mount to ride the stress off! Capiche? Thanks to you and the fellows you named plus all others on this site that are such stand-up bike riders that they would take their valuable time to post great how-to info and instructions including pics so that others will benefit!!! You guys are the best!!!

Tom
 

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I know the majority here thinks the damage is due to the springs rattling around at or near idle. I've always found that a little hard to swallow especially when photos show the damage at the ends of the springs vs. the sides. When you think about the purpose of the clutch hub, it makes more sense that the damage is caused by hard accel/decel/accel while in gear and how many times it endures the "shudder" condition and how long the rider "rides it out" vs. pulling the clutch lever and letting off the throttle. The shudder start happening on my bike last summer. It's happened 10+ times, but less than 20. The 1st few times, it took me by surprise and it was VERY violent. I conditioned myself to anticipate it and the few times it reoccurred, I let off the throttle immediately. I took a magnifying glass to the hub and saw 3 spots where one end of the springs left marks. The damage wasn't anything near what others have posted in photos, but it's there bro. Mechanically/technically, I know what/where the shudder is. The key is why. Nothing has changed on my bike over time. Time is the key. Time equals wear. It's either weak clutch springs or dry clutch pack (or both). While my pack was completely saturated with oil when I took it apart, it is possible that it was temporarily dry each time the shudder occurred. Well... I have stiffer springs and just maybe that plate tab alignment thing will help with the oiling. I hope I fixed it and don't have to dig in again until 2nd gear goes South. :D I was also amazed at how clean everything was inside. I mean REALLY clean. I'm going to chalk that one up to using Mobil 1 4T since the 500 mile mark. Of course, I just jumped on the Amsoil bandwagon as of this clutch R&R. :D I'm babbling now... time for sleep. :eek:
Yeah the damage in the hubs isn't caused by rattling... Its caused by the springs hitting the ends of the carriers as they are compressed under load.... during decel and Accel. And I would obviously be lying if I said I wasn't a little heavy handed on the throttle.


The Shudder I think is a completely different animal all together... I believe it is related to oil starvation in the clutch and the clutch not having a smooth linear engagement.

If you're talking about a huge increase in bad vibrations in the bike my guess is your mount bushings are toast...

Take a flashlight and look between the radiator and Engine from the magneto side. Look INTO the back side of the front exhaust side Engine mount to see if there is a gap between the top of the bushing and the mount.
Also take a look at your engine as it sits in the frame. If its not about 1/8 to 1/4" ABOVE the bottom of the frame, where the bike lift hits, then your engine is sagging in the mounts.
 
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