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I’m trying to decide which fuel management system I should run with if any. I already have aftermarket exhaust, air intake and my ecu flashed. Would the PCV or CPPB be the best system to run to get the best performance out of my bike?
 

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I’m trying to decide which fuel management system I should run with if any. I already have aftermarket exhaust, air intake and my ecu flashed. Would the PCV or CPPB be the best system to run to get the best performance out of my bike?
Do you have Full or Partial ECU FLASH? It matters a great deal, as to whether you should even be considering any brand of Fuel Tuner at this point. If you have a FULL ECU FLASH from BCS, you should not add any type or brand of Fuel Tuner to your 9. The FULL ECU FLASH provides more and better performance results for your bike than any Fuel Tuner. Adding a Fuel Tuner to a 9 that already has a FULL ECU FLASH will compromise the FULL FLASH, and your bike will not perform at optimum performance levels. If BCS sees this post, I am hopeful he will chime in, and better explain the complications you will experience, if you add a Fuel Tuner to a 9 that already has a FULL ECU FLASH.
 

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Do you have Full or Partial ECU FLASH? It matters a great deal, as to whether you should even be considering any brand of Fuel Tuner at this point. If you have a FULL ECU FLASH from BCS, you should not add any type or brand of Fuel Tuner to your 9. The FULL ECU FLASH provides more and better performance results for your bike than any Fuel Tuner. Adding a Fuel Tuner to a 9 that already has a FULL ECU FLASH will compromise the FULL FLASH, and your bike will not perform at optimum performance levels. If BCS sees this post, I am hopeful he will chime in, and better explain the complications you will experience, if you add a Fuel Tuner to a 9 that already has a FULL ECU FLASH.
I have a full ECU flash from Ivan’s Performance but I was under the assumption that even though my ECU is flashed it’s a generic tune for all M109R’s. Since it’s not tuned pacifically for my bike and mods I thought I need to add one. The shop that I was going to let do everything said I would have my ECU flashed, PCV added and Dyno both Cylinders but they were backed up so I went ahead and had my ECU flashed so that’s one less thing they had to worry about. Was I misinformed with that info?
 

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Both Ivan and BCS have very comprehensive flashes, While they have tunes for "all" M109R's, they are tunes that are built around aftermarket intakes and exhausts and extensive time is spent on perfecting their tunes. They are not just created by doing a few dyno pulls and calling it good. They adjust the fuel, of course, but also timing, secondary throttle valves, etc.... both on the dyno and riding the bikes. I would in no way refer to either tune as "generic". I've had BCS's full flash on my M109R and Ivan's flash on other bikes, there has never been a need for an add-on fuel tuner along with the flash. Maybe the shop you are dealing with is thinking about the "canned" power commander maps available on the DynoJet site, those are what I would consider "generic".
 

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Discussion Starter #5
Do you have Full or Partial ECU FLASH? It matters a great deal, as to whether you should even be considering any brand of Fuel Tuner at this point. If you have a FULL ECU FLASH from BCS, you should not add any type or brand of Fuel Tuner to your 9. The FULL ECU FLASH provides more and better performance results for your bike than any Fuel Tuner. Adding a Fuel Tuner to a 9 that already has a FULL ECU FLASH will compromise the FULL FLASH, and your bike will not perform at optimum performance levels. If BCS sees this post, I am hopeful he will chime in, and better explain the complications you will experience, if you add a Fuel Tuner to a 9 that already has a FULL ECU FLASH.
I have a full ECU
Both Ivan and BCS have very comprehensive flashes, While they have tunes for "all" M109R's, they are tunes that are built around aftermarket intakes and exhausts and extensive time is spent on perfecting their tunes. They are not just created by doing a few dyno pulls and calling it good. They adjust the fuel, of course, but also timing, secondary throttle valves, etc.... both on the dyno and riding the bikes. I would in no way refer to either tune as "generic". I've had BCS's full flash on my M109R and Ivan's flash on other bikes, there has never been a need for an add-on fuel tuner along with the flash. Maybe the shop you are dealing with is thinking about the "canned" power commander maps available on the DynoJet site, those are what I would consider "generic".
Ok, that’s what I needed to know b4 I spent Unnecessary money that I didn’t have to. The way they made it seem as if I got the flash I would still need to get it tweaked so it’s perfect for my bike since I only sent the ECU in and Ivan’s wouldn’t have my bike to test it.
 

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Both Ivan and BCS have very comprehensive flashes, While they have tunes for "all" M109R's, they are tunes that are built around aftermarket intakes and exhausts and extensive time is spent on perfecting their tunes. They are not just created by doing a few dyno pulls and calling it good. They adjust the fuel, of course, but also timing, secondary throttle valves, etc.... both on the dyno and riding the bikes. I would in no way refer to either tune as "generic". I've had BCS's full flash on my M109R and Ivan's flash on other bikes, there has never been a need for an add-on fuel tuner along with the flash. Maybe the shop you are dealing with is thinking about the "canned" power commander maps available on the DynoJet site, those are what I would consider "generic".
Excellent reponse Kratos. Thanks for chiming in Bro. This is all about helping a new member get it right the first time. :)(y)(y)(y):)
 

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I have a full ECU

Ok, that’s what I needed to know b4 I spent Unnecessary money that I didn’t have to. The way they made it seem as if I got the flash I would still need to get it tweaked so it’s perfect for my bike since I only sent the ECU in and Ivan’s wouldn’t have my bike to test it.
That is not true at all. BCS nor Ivan need the bike for testing. They have created programs that allow them to reprogram the ECU, specifically based upon the type/style/make/manufacturer of your aftermarket Air Intakes and aftermarket Exhaust. I have the BCS FULL ECU FLASH on my 07' model M109R, and BCS emphatically instructed me to remove my Cobra Power Pro Tuner from the bike, because it would be counter-productive to the FULL FLASHED ECU, as well as the FULL FLASHED ECU being counter-productive to the Cobra Power Pro Tuner. Neither of them would function in the manner and level they were intended, or created for.
 

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I have a full ECU flash from Ivan’s Performance but I was under the assumption that even though my ECU is flashed it’s a generic tune for all M109R’s. Since it’s not tuned pacifically for my bike and mods I thought I need to add one. The shop that I was going to let do everything said I would have my ECU flashed, PCV added and Dyno both Cylinders but they were backed up so I went ahead and had my ECU flashed so that’s one less thing they had to worry about. Was I misinformed with that info?
You were terribly misinformed with that information Suge. When you have a FULL FLASHED ECU, there's absolutely no need for an additional Fuel Tuner. The ECU now has ALL the ability/capacity to provide what the Fuel Tuner would provide, plus even more, or at an even higher/better capacity. In other words, there's NO Fuel Tuner out there that can come close to matching the abilities/capacity/performance upgrade provided by a properly done FULL ECU FLASH. Moreover, the FULL ECU FLASH is not generic. It a program written to override and rewrite the stock programming in your ECU, based on the specific aftermarket Air Intakes and Exhaust you have installed on your M109R. On another note, don't be so quick to take your M109R to the dealership, especially when it pertains to aftermarket modifications and upgrades. The vast majority of bike mechanics and their service department supervisors don't actually have much of a clue about those sorts of things. They will rant on and on about things, from a basic knowledge and concept of how bikes generally work/function. However, they are not up to par on many things (especially aftermarket things) regarding the M109R. They were setting you up for the kill Bro, and if you had not found this Forum, they were planning on ripping the lining out of your pockets, with exorbitant prices they were likely going to charge you for all of that unnecessary work they say they were going to do, which was only going to make your bike run like trash, at the end of the day. It's amazing how God works sometimes. Often times, He will delay or detour us to help us avoid a pitfall...and most of us don't have a clue that it's actually even happening. It was a blessing that you found this Forum, before going forward with you original plan.

Lastly, I hope you stay active on this Forum. There are some extremely-talented/gifted, skilled members on this Forum, who are more than willing to help other members, and share their knowledge, experience, and skills with any member in need. You will learn a lot, just by staying connected and engaged on a somewhat frequent basis.:)(y)(y)(y):)
 

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Discussion Starter #9
That is not true at all. BCS nor Ivan need the bike for testing. They have created programs that allow them to reprogram the ECU, specifically based upon the type/style/make/manufacturer of your aftermarket Air Intakes and aftermarket Exhaust. I have the BCS FULL ECU FLASH on my 07' model M109R, and BCS emphatically instructed me to remove my Cobra Power Pro Tuner from the bike, because it would be counter-productive to the FULL FLASHED ECU, as well as the FULL FLASHED ECU being counter-productive to the Cobra Power Pro Tuner. Neither of them would function in the manner and level they were intended, or created for.
Ok thanks for the info.
 

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You were terribly misinformed with that information Suge. When you have a FULL FLASHED ECU, there's absolutely no need for an additional Fuel Tuner. The ECU now has ALL the ability/capacity to provide what the Fuel Tuner would provide, plus even more, or at an even higher/better capacity. In other words, there's NO Fuel Tuner out there that can come close to matching the abilities/capacity/performance upgrade provided by a properly done FULL ECU FLASH. Moreover, the FULL ECU FLASH is not generic. It a program written to override and rewrite the stock programming in your ECU, based on the specific aftermarket Air Intakes and Exhaust you have installed on your M109R. On another note, don't be so quick to take your M109R to the dealership, especially when it pertains to aftermarket modifications and upgrades. The vast majority of bike mechanics and their service department supervisors don't actually have much of a clue about those sorts of things. They will rant on and on about things, from a basic knowledge and concept of how bikes generally work/function. However, they are not up to par on many things (especially aftermarket things) regarding the M109R. They were setting you up for the kill Bro, and if you had not found this Forum, they were planning on ripping the lining out of your pockets, with exorbitant prices they were likely going to charge you for all of that unnecessary work they say they were going to do, which was only going to make your bike run like trash, at the end of the day. It's amazing how God works sometimes. Often times, He will delay or detour us to help us avoid a pitfall...and most of us don't have a clue that it's actually even happening. It was a blessing that you found this Forum, before going forward with you original plan.

Lastly, I hope you stay active on this Forum. There are some extremely-talented/gifted, skilled members on this Forum, who are more than willing to help other members, and share their knowledge, experience, and skills with any member in need. You will learn a lot, just by staying connected and engaged on a somewhat frequent basis.:)(y)(y)(y):)
Yea they were going to charge me right at $1400 for everything so even with me getting the ECU FLASHED on my own I would have been out of $1100. Thanks for all the info and I have no plans on getting rid of my 9 so I’m here for the long haul.
 

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There are variables like climate and altitude that may or may not be considered in an ECU flash. You could still likely find a little power with a dyno tune as there are variables between identically prepared bikes. The Power Commander is the only fuel tuner I'm aware of that lets you remove fuel as well as add.
 

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Discussion Starter #12
The CPPB is suppose to auto tune your bike as you ride. So you don’t have to add or remove maps because it does everything for you.
 

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The CPPB is suppose to auto tune your bike as you ride. So you don’t have to add or remove maps because it does everything for you.
So does the PCV with the auto tune module and an oxygen sensor , BUT you STILL need a dyno tune initially.
 

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I have a full ECU

Ok, that’s what I needed to know b4 I spent Unnecessary money that I didn’t have to. The way they made it seem as if I got the flash I would still need to get it tweaked so it’s perfect for my bike since I only sent the ECU in and Ivan’s wouldn’t have my bike to test it.
Really depends on what "perfect" is for you. Is there room to improve the fueling on your specific bike, maybe. Will you be able to tell other than seeing a number on a dyno, probably not. Will your bike be in danger of running lean with either full flash, no. Is it worth spending the money to see if you can make a minute improvement on the flash, not in my opinion. But everyone has their own version of "perfect".

The ECU flash does not prevent the existing inlet sensors from functioning normally, so you would still get adjustments from air inlet temp and pressure sensors.

Keep in mind, for an auto-tune type of fuel controller, it's only going to be as good as the AFR you use in the target table. Not to mention you'll have to drill a hole for a wide-band oxygen sensor and figure out the best location for accurate readings. Unless you're going to be able to put the bike on a dyno and figure out what the AFR needs to be in each cell, you'll just be shooting in the dark and likely negating the performance gains of the full ECU flash.

Auto-tune fuel tuners are ok if you have no other choice, but you still have to know what you are doing, they are not just plug-n-play and go ride. I would not use any add-on fuel tuner if a full ECU flash is available from a reputable tuner.
 

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There are a lot of misconceptions about how tuners work and tuning in general.

The stock bike with stock ECU maps are the same in each model year and sold all over North America, Suzuki does not put out different stock maps for different regions and the bikes all run fine.
So how is this any different if you change the map values in the ECU......how does this all of sudden make it that you cannot ride the same tune in different areas?
Bikes are ridden all over, a guy who lives in the mountains will eventually ride somewhere at a lower elevation, and his bike will run fine if he takes a trip on it to go to the coast and hang out on the beach......and vice versa.
Will the AFR be a bit different at the same TP & RPM in different regions......sure. But unless you are going to tune and ride your bike only at one elevation for its entire life then there is no real way tune tune around physics.

A Cobra Auto tuner basically adds fuel upon acceleration......a lot of fuel from the little testing I have done.
I personally do not recommend adding a cobra fuel tuner on top of your full ECU flash as this will end up adding way too much fuel upon acceleration and you actually loose power, not gain.

A Power Commander has static maps (just like the ECU) and only adjust the fuel to whatever values are written to those static maps (just like the ECU) it does not do anything automatically.
If you have the Auto Tune module for the power commander with wideband O2 feedback, you can choose to have value changes written to the PC fuel tables based on the results of data logged AFR values. But you have to select this be written to the ECU yourself, it is not done automatically.
Also not sure why you would pay big money to have you bike custom dyno tuned and then start changing the fuel map values you just paid the dyno tuner to build for you.....that seem a bit counter productive to me.

As far as adding a fuel tuner on top of a Full ECU Flash, it is possible to do this with a power commander, but you would have to have this done by a reputable dyno tuner. He would need to know that your ECU has already been flashed and you are wanting a "Custom PC map built on top of your flash.
Most dyno tuners will simply download a generic map off of the dynojet website and then touch up your top end 100% WOT fuel table. If they do it that way on top of your full flash you will likely end up with way too much fuel being adding across better than 90% of your fuel maps.

Most guys are not racing their bikes trying to shave 1/10th of a second off their times so the full ECU flash by mail will work just fine for the majority of riders out there.
For those looking to squeak every bit of power then can out of the bike and that is there only concern, they should take "their" bike and have it custom tuned.
However doing this does not mean you will end up with a better riding bike or that you will get any more top end hp. It will depend on what the guy tuning bike actually does.....it is a crap shoot.
To get a really good custom tune be prepared to spend some money.

For those who want an inexpensive plug and play option, that makes the bike run really well and you do not have to add any aftermarket devices to the bike, the ECU tune by mail is hands down the best bang for your buck and a great option.
Aftermarket FI tuners only adjust the fuel maps. The full ECU tune offers much more than just fuel map tuning.

But any tune using static maps (be it ECU tune or Power Commander) is only going to do what it is programed to do, and will only be as good as the amount of time and detail the person doing the tuning puts into it.

BCS
 

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My only addition to this is what info did you give when you had the flash done. Did you tell Ivan's Performance the exhaust and intakes you have on the bike? My guess is they asked and the answer is yes but maybe contact them to get their input instead of trusting the dealer.
 

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Discussion Starter #18
My only addition to this is what info did you give when you had the flash done. Did you tell Ivan's Performance the exhaust and intakes you have on the bike? My guess is they asked and the answer is yes but maybe contact them to get their input instead of trusting the dealer.
Yes I did let him and my bike runs really well just wanted to make sure before I made anymore decisions.
 
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