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The really odd part is that he is not getting any FI fault indication at all.
Might want to pull the connector off a sensor and start the bike just to make sure your FI fault indicator is actually working.

If there were issue with the crank position sensor, I would think the bike would run very bad, as in most likely not at all.
If the crank position sensor is off you're not going to inject fuel into the cylinder or fire the plug at the correct time.
The tolerance for getting those two items out of whack and still have the bike run are pretty slim.
And not sure how backing off the throttle and then getting back on it would correct that issue, as the OP has stated he has done many times.
But anything is possible I suppose. The CPS is a $$ fix so you want to be sure its that before buying one.

My next move would be to swap IAT sensors with your buddy and see if your bike clears up and his start stumbling.
Easy to do and cost nothing to try......as long as you can talk him to loaning you the sensor for a day.

I would also go over the entire wiring harness again, but I am an electrician, so that is my go to move. :)

BCS
LGB/FJB
 

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It's not a big deal to take a multi-meter and check the crank sensor when hot, Semi conductors do all kinds of weird stuff when they are on the way out when they get hot. Look at a graphic card in a computer when they are going out they work for a bit when cold then when they get hot they crash or start screwing up.
If the FI light is not coming on the ECU is being told to do what it is doing, a fault would be if the ECU is trying to do something and can't because of a faulty sensor then it will error. so high or primary inputs are being sent as regular inputs if you understand my meaning.
I worked on a lot of automation for plant production. When things get worse with heat it is considered a mechanical problem meaning something is loose or cracked in the wiring or internal in a sensor the thermal expansion is widening or making a contact looser or interment.
If it was an ignition problem wouldn't the O2 sensor be out of spec running too rich and throw a light when it was hiccuping?
I would go over the crank sensor with a fine tooth comb including wiring, an old trick is the pull on a wire about a few inches back with a steady pull for about 30 seconds from the connector and see if the insulation narrows and turns white indicating a broken internal wire just like what it would take to stretch a twizzler licorice. Then look into the connector with a flashlight and make sure all contacts aren't bent and look as though they would press and grab each other properly, then work your way through all relevant sensors until you are sure you covered everything.
Also when you first turn the key on the FI light should illuminate, makes sure the bulb isn't burnt, Lol.
that is where I would start. good luck I really hope you find it. I am very curious about what is going on.
 

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If it was an ignition problem wouldn't the O2 sensor be out of spec running too rich and throw a light when it was hiccuping?
North American M109R do not have narrow band O2 from factory.

Even if they did, narrow band is only a digital signal (0-1), its not analog.

BCS
LGB/FJB
 

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What about the ground, if someone was playing around with the electrical the ECM has a dedicated wire to the battery and then the battery is grounded, I have seen on other vehicles that the wire was loose from damage and caused the ECU to be intermittent. I wonder if someone cut into that wire for a ground.
 

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Discussion Starter · #65 ·
I've ordered a peak voltage adapter for my multimeter. Once that arrives I'll dig back into it. I needed some time away from her before I run her off a cliff. Good to target the CPS.

BCS - what is the best/easiest sensor for me to disconnect and make sure it actually there's a code?
 

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I've ordered a peak voltage adapter for my multimeter. Once that arrives I'll dig back into it. I needed some time away from her before I run her off a cliff. Good to target the CPS.

BCS - what is the best/easiest sensor for me to disconnect and make sure it actually there's a code?
You can lift the tank and unplug one of the IAP sensors easy enough.

#1 in the photo should produce a C-17 fault.
#2 in the photo should produce a C-13 fault.

BCS
LGB/FJB




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Dirtie, when you start testing any sensors, unplug them and test them. That way you don't risk feeding voltage back into the ECU. I think BCS or someone mentioned this before. You can check for voltage or ground on the plug, but check any resistance measurements just on the sensor.

The thing I thought after mentioning the crank sensor, is that it really shouldn't act different hot or cold, considering the environment it's in. I can't imagine inside that generator case changes temps that much between a cool and hot day.
 

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Discussion Starter · #68 ·
I have been scouring the archives of this forum. It seems as though I can find several cases of similar issues. None of them have posted the actual resolution. So I will keep my thread of fun going and promise to update it when I arrive on some resolution, even if that resolution is for me to sell it in the winter, LOL! (Note: I won't do that)

Short of a misc loose electrical connection, I think my most likely candidates for points of failure are:
a. TPS
b. CPS (Zoom - it does seem awful strange given the enclosed environment)
c. Intake temp sensor (I assume there is some sensor in the airbox reading the air temp)

In scouring the archives, I read something about the SET valve that intrigued me. I did make two changes to my bike right before she started doing this, one of which was a changed out my chrome stock exhaust (which was drilled) with a black stock exhaust (not drilled). I remember when I mounted it wondering if it was important to set the tension on the push/pull cables the same. I took no care in how I set them, just tightened the cables and off I went. Also, I remember one of the locking nuts was impossible to get at (locking the cable tension on the exhaust). Oh, and I repainted the exhaust before mounting it, and the exhaust looked great but I was told that it was stored in a shed for several years. What would happen if the SET valve in the exhaust (or is it called an EXUP valve?) was siezing a little bit as she heated up? This seems like a long shot, but thought I would ask the question as this is what was in an old post from 2014...

Q: My bike is acting like it's not getting fuel. (AKA "limp mode")
A: ATTENTIONAnyone having this problem, CHECK YOUR CABLES FOR YOUR S.E.T. VALVE!! It has been brought to my attention, that this may be the cause for your issues. If you are running a stock exhaust, make sure the cables are the same tension. You can adjust these on both sides of the cables. If you do not have stock exhaust, pull your SET wire from the ECU.

I believe this issue is the SET is out of adjustment, and/or the SET cam is bad. If either of these things happen, it will put you into limp mode (according to the manual, you may or may not get a FI light!). SO, if you are in limp mode, you will know because when you shut bike off and back on, and it runs fine, but then does it again shortly afterward. Limp mode is designed to put the bike in a "safe zone" so no further damage can be done. I truly believe this will fix your problem.


Source: Still having power issues
 

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Discussion Starter · #69 ·
And in case you are wondering, the other change I made was to go to modified air filter boxes. I have since returned them to the stock salad bowls (but one still has a K&N filter in it, other is a stock paper element filter) and it has no effect on my issue.
 

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I doubt the SET valve would make it cut in and out, I would expect it to just reduce power. But you never know. It would be real easy to test, just unhook it. They are spring loaded to stay full open, and you'll likely get a FI light until you hook it back up, but you can sure test it that way.
If they go into limp mode it significantly reduces power and the rpm's the motor will turn. I'm thinking it's something like 2500 rpm but I'm not sure. But the power delivery should be linear in that mode, not cut in and out as yours is doing.
The IAT sensor is on the air box, along with the Idle Air Control Valve (IAC) so you have a couple things there to check. And don't forget you have a TPS on both the primary and secondary throttles,
 

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Discussion Starter · #71 ·
I haven't gotten very far as life has gotten in the way. Not to mention it's been about 99F and 99%RH outside for the last week.

I was able to start taking her apart... again... So I'll finish the painting as well. I painted the Tri-Pro exhaust so that will go back on once I get everything off her. Oh, and I can confirm that unplugging the right side IAP sensor turned the FI light on. I then read the code and saw C13 continuously. Strangely, I unplugged two connectors down behind the key first... they seemed to have no effect on the FI light (meaning it did not turn on) or how the bike ran (which was fine because it wasn't up to temp). I'll have to look up what those connectors are for.

To be continued...
 

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Discussion Starter · #72 ·
(Background on this post: two weeks ago I decided to cut costs and go back to mowing my own lawn. After three years of using a landscaper the cost went up from $35/cut to $50/cut. So I bought a walk-behind to start doing it myself.)

But on the plus side, after rebuilding the variable speed pulley, replacing the gearbox, replacing the recoil starter I broke, repairing a broken pulley with JB Weld (new pulleys are on the way) and redoing all the belts so they actual run the path they are supposed to, my lawn mower works and I could cut my grass yesterday! Yay!!!
 

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(Background on this post: two weeks ago I decided to cut costs and go back to mowing my own lawn. After three years of using a landscaper the cost went up from $35/cut to $50/cut. So I bought a walk-behind to start doing it myself.)

But on the plus side, after rebuilding the variable speed pulley, replacing the gearbox, replacing the recoil starter I broke, repairing a broken pulley with JB Weld (new pulleys are on the way) and redoing all the belts so they actual run the path they are supposed to, my lawn mower works and I could cut my grass yesterday! Yay!!!
LOL.....I had the same epiphany recently when I had to do a complete overhaul of the deck on my $5000 John Deere zero turn.
I did all the labor, but the parts alone cost $1000. You would think $6000 dollars would pay for quite a few cuts from a landscaping company.
But my lawn would cost $120 - $150 each time to have a company do it.
I have had the mower 12 years now, so I am still money ahead,.as long as we don't include my labor to cut the lawn. (Or I guess I should say the wife's labor, she cuts the grass most of the time) :)
If I could just get her to run the trimmer also, I would be set. But I have tried, she will ride the zero turn all day without complaint, but refuses to use the weed eater.

BCS
LGB/FJB
 

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Discussion Starter · #74 ·
I got the air box off. I now understand there are two sets of butterfly valves in the throttle bodies. The lower (closer to the engine) set is directly controlled by the throttle cables. The upper (closer to the air box) seems to be controlled by a servo on the right side above the throttle position sensor - is this correct?

My upper butterflies seem to be a little sticky. Is that normal? If I move them to the completely open position, the just stay there. If I move them to the fully closed position, I can get them to stay closed half the time, other times the open back to maybe 1/4 open.

A few pics.
Automotive fuel system Motor vehicle Automotive design Automotive exterior Automotive tire


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You're correct on the throttle bodies. I think I mentioned earlier that the secondaries also have a throttle position sensor, STPS, just like the primaries have a TPS. I don't like rotating the secondaries manually, as you are also rotating the servo motor that moves them. The servo motor will add some resistance to moving the plates.

Back in the early days some folks removed the secondary throttle plates thinking the bike would run better without them. If you're familiar will old carburetors you would see why that might not work so well. Carbs with mechanical secondaries would bog the engine if you opened them up too fast, so vacuum operated secondaries worked better. Same thing with the secondary plates, the ECU determines how much they open and when. They also use it as a means to limit the top speed of the bike.

Healtech, the company that makes TRE's and ATRE's, also makes a STVE, or secondary throttle valve eliminator. If you plug it in, you can remove the secondary plates, actuator, and position sensor without causing an FI code.

We won't talk about mowers, it seems half my time is spend keeping my antique mowers running Got to have at least one spare rider here because the grass grows so darn fast. :)
 

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I have not tried it personally, but you can remove the secondary plates from the actuator shaft and that will not throw a FI fault.
Do not remove the secondary actuator though and do not try to move the plates by hand when you have the ignition turn on.
Personally I would not move them by hand at all any more than needed to trouble shoot the position sensor.
If you turn your ignition key on, you should see them open to full position and then close back down to around 20% or so.

The ECU outputs a value as to where the secondary plates should be. If the actuator is working properly it will move the shaft to this output value position if the plates are actually connected to the shaft or not.
If the secondary throttle plate sensor is working properly, it will give feedback to the ECU saying the opening is correct. The position sensor is not looking at the plates themselves.

But if your secondary had an issue it would be throwing a FI fault. If the position sensor is not feeding back the same position value as the ECU output value, then that would trigger a fault.

Since you have the airbox off already, if you really want to remove the plates just to prove to yourself they are not the issue you are having, you can remove the plates by taking out the 2 small screws that hold the plate to the shaft. Just be careful not to drop them into the throttle body. (Maybe use a magnetic tipped screw driver to retain them)
The bike will run fine without them at speed but it may effect your idle and very low RPM a bit. The fuel maps were tuned with the plates in tact and your idle speed control valve was set with the secondary's closed down almost all the way. So the extra intake air with the plates off will have some effect down low and at idle.

I have not taken the plates off but I have opened the secondary's to 100% in all throttle positions before via the software when experimenting.

BCS
LGB/FJB
 

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Discussion Starter · #77 ·
Thanks again.

I know it couldn't have been my issue, especially the way the entire engine cuts out for a fraction of a second when it starts happening - before the RPMs start going erratic. I'm just trying to learn and correct/adjust anything that might not have been touched in the 10 years since she left the factory. I will not be taking the secondary's off.

I do have to admit to doing something stupid just because I was in a hurry a while back... I opened up the radiator cap and found a couple globs of blue snot. Two months back I had a minor coolant leak at the hose between the cylinder heads. After tightening the hose clamp I added anti-freeze as she was low. The anti-freeze in the bike was blue. I grabbed the anti-freeze I have, which is also blue, and added it rather then flushing the whole system. My guess is they did not mix well and coagulated into some snot. The fluid itself is still liquid, but I have to flush the entire system now before adding more 50/50 glycol anti-freeze.

BCS - Sorry to hear of your head bump. Hopefully it's not too bad.
 

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I don't know if the throttle plates on these are like the ones on a carburetor on a car, but those screws aren't easy to get out. Actually easier to get out than they are to get back in. They flare the end of them slightly so if they loosen they can't just fall out. Ask me how I know how hard they are to get back in. :)
 

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Long shot , my old Ninja once had the hiccups , long search only to find out some gaz made it into the oil ,
started nice , but soon as it got a little warm , the hiccups and even what seem like backfires were there ,
after oil change ( smelly oil ) the bike was back to its original goodness ,
I know we have fuel injected bikes but can it " flood " like the old days with a choke ???
maybe smell the dipstick for gazz presence ???
 
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