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Discussion Starter · #41 ·
I rode her into work this morning. My commute is only 20 minutes and it was only in the low 60's outside... but no hiccups. This afternoon it should be around 80F on my way home, so a little better change of a hiccup... but hopefully not.

Latest changes:
  1. Both front and rear stick coils were replaced. The front ignition coil was also replaced, but the one I bought for the rear didn't have a long enough lead so it was not changed. If the hiccup returns I'll replace that last one.
  2. I put a different gas tank on her. So the tank, and thus all of the gas, is now brand-spankin' new.
So, I will update again after my ride home. In the mean time, attached are some pics from this morning showing the new color scheme I'm going with. I know it looks pretty gooffy right now with the two-tone look... I'll paint the side and rear bits once I get my second bike on the road.

Tire Fuel tank Wheel Vehicle Automotive fuel system


Tire Wheel Fuel tank Vehicle Automotive fuel system


Tire Wheel Fuel tank Land vehicle Vehicle
 

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It does not look bad as is, I have a yellow 2008 LE, and I am running a black front fender on it at the moment.
Wife dropped my bike in the garage trying to move it while I was not there and busted the original yellow fender.
Right after that happened I put a red fender off a 2007 on it, because I had it laying around already........now that looked very weird.
I started calling it the condiment bike, Yellow & Red with White stripe. Looked like Mustard, Ketchup and Mayo.
Have not had any luck locating a yellow fender at a reasonable price, but found someone on the FB pages selling a black fender.
I think it looks good enough with the black fender that I am not worried about getting it painted and may just leave it that way until I find someone parting out a 08 LE.

BCS
LGB/FJB
 

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I kind of like that look too. It's not going to get mixed up with all the others out there that were the same color that model year. You wouldn't believe how many times at the bigger meets someone walks over to the wrong yellow or red or blue bike.

Off topic, but a lady I worked with had a good business making ID thingies for the Rolling Thunder ride. They were just a stretch thing made with whatever color beads you wanted that you could slip over your grip. Imagine going to a meet with your HD and trying to find it among the other 80,000 black ones. :D
 

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Discussion Starter · #44 ·
I drove home today at lunch to pick up the 9. It's sunny and hot today (87F). First tiny hiccup occurred about 7 minutes in. By the time I got to work I could get it to do the "missfire" hiccup every throttle pull and she was juuuust starting to show the "erratic RPMs" stutter as I pulled into work. Total travel time is 20 minutes.

Mother suckin siht balls. I've been really down lately as it is... and now my place of peace and tranquility, going for a ride, is just piling on more frustration and anger into my life.

I have a new rear coil on order. To be continued... again...

Note: I did paint the spare rear cowl I have the same colors and got it on her last night. She looks pretty good now! :) Too bad she runs like siht. :(
 

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Dirtie, you might be at the point where you need to take it somewhere that they can scope it and see what is going on with it. Since it does it sitting still, maybe a dealer can hook a diagnostics tester to it. I hate things where you keep throwing money at them and hope for the best. I'm not even sure they can do what I'm saying but it might not hurt to call one and see.

I really feel sorry for you and wish there was a magic answer to your problems. It would be driving me nuts.
 

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Discussion Starter · #47 ·
Just a WAG here........but are you 100% sure there is not a aftermarket fuel tuner or TRE on your bike stashed away where you are not noticing it?

BCS
LGB/FJB
I'm an engineer. I'm never 100% certain of anything. :)

I'll take a bunch of pics as I take her apart this time. Maybe you guys will see something strange.

I should be able to install the last coil and take her for a test run this weekend. I'll report back. Thanks for the support, guys.
 

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I would seriously be checking the CKP sensor with a multi-meter according to 10-28 in the manual. when it is hot and miss firing.
Side note, I had low oil pressure on one of my trucks when it got warm, thinking the engine was tired and ready for a rebuild, it turned out to be a stupid loose connector when it got hot and expanded and was not connecting properly.
 

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Discussion Starter · #49 ·
I would seriously be checking the CKP sensor with a multi-meter according to 10-28 in the manual. when it is hot and miss firing.
Side note, I had low oil pressure on one of my trucks when it got warm, thinking the engine was tired and ready for a rebuild, it turned out to be a stupid loose connector when it got hot and expanded and was not connecting properly.
I just looked at 10-28... I guess I should just buy the peak voltage adapter so I can do this test and test the coils properly. If coil #4 doesn't result in any change then I'll order the peak voltage adapter lickety-split.
 

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Discussion Starter · #50 ·
Well, the final coil has been replaced. It only took me 20 minutes to take out apart, swap the coil, and put it back together. I only rode her for 8 minutes as I was officially watching the kids (meaning I had to get back before the wife). It might just be in my head, but I think she felt a bit more powerful and smooth accelerating. No hiccups. So if the rain passes tonight I'll ride her in tomorrow's heat and know if she's fine now or if it pushes me to the point of having a complete breakdown.

BCS: I've had pcv fuel controllers on previous bikes. I didn't see anything like that. Based on how stock the bike was when I got it (only mods were cheap handlebar speakers and the exhaust was drilled), I don't think the original owner would have put money into a fuel controller.
 

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Unfortunately I cannot watch the video here on the ship.
Our IT department has streaming video locked down over our Sat link.
So any opinions I give are just WAGs at this point since I am flying totally blind.
The fact that you can cover the same ground with ambient temp in the 60s with no issue and then cover the same ground with ambient temp in the 80s and have trouble is odd though.
My thoughts instantly go to fuel tank venting issues, but we have already brought this up in previous post.
Maybe try this approach to that issue just for S&H, its easy enough and cost nothing to try.......If you have a spare key, put it in your fuel cap, take the bike out and when it starts having issue, reach down and unlock your fuel cap so it unseats from the tank while you are still riding and the issue is present. If the issue clears then we are on to something. If not it was a shot to test.

The only other thing I can think of that has not been covered so far is possibly the IAT Sensor (Intake Air Temperature Sensor)
I personally have never come across an issue with this sensor, but from the description of your problem it seems like a probable culprit.
There is a fault parameter for this sensor in the ECU which would be C-21. But I think you said you are not getting any fault indication at all, correct?

Below are print screen shots from the service manual for troubleshooting the IAT.
You will also notice in this screen shot it list P110 code as well as C-21 code. The P codes can only be seen using diagnostic software. The C codes are what will show in your odometer display when the diagnostic port is shorted.
I have in the past had P codes show up in my diagnostic software but not have a FI fault indication or C code present on the bike itself. (Can't say why, but I know it has happened at least once in the past to me)

If I remember correctly you were having this issue before getting your ECU flashed so its not likely that a wire was pulled loose when removing/installing the ECU causing the issue. But this has happened in the past and it can be a task to find the culprit conductor for sure.
It is worth a shot to double check that all the conductors going into the ECU connectors are firmly seated and a pin did not get pushed back into the connector when removing/installing the ECU.
Also visually inspect the pins in the connectors and on the ECU to make sure none were bent when removing/installing the ECU.

Also if you are start using a multi meter to probe the electrical on the bike, be aware of what you are doing. The multi meter can induce voltage onto or short components in the ECU that could cause more issues. Pay close attention when the manual says to check "continuity (ohms), a lot of times it saying to this with the ECU electrical connectors disconnected so you measure ohms of the sensor only and not measure ohms through the ECU.
(SDS that is mentioned in the service manual is Suzuki Diagnostic Software, which obviously you will not have. So you will not see the P codes or be able to utilize the functions of this software they mention in the manual)

Again, this is all just WAGs at this point but thought I would throw it out there as a next possible step to troubleshoot.

I think you said there is someone near you with a 2013, if you know him well enough, maybe he will swap IAT sensors with you to rule the senor out if you are getting proper readings as per the service manual.

You asked in PM if you could swap ECU's with him. Were you able to do that?
I doubt it is a ECU issue, but anything is possible. If it is, it would be the first time I have seen a ECU with intermittent issues.
The only ECU problem I have ever encountered is when I bricked one on my bike. I was flashing my ECU while it was in the bike and my laptop battery died right in the middle of writing to the ECU and I was not able to recover the ECU. Learned that lesson the hard way. (My bike is wired with a racing harness so I can access the ECU in real time while the bike is running)

When flashing customers ECU's, we are doing that on a bench with a hard wired power supply and desktop PC. Both of which are connected to a UPS, so there is no voltage interruption should the utility power drop. So no chance of that happening with a customers ECU. :)

The ECU is very robust but not indestructible, its an electronic device so it is capable of failing, though this is not common at all in my experience.
But I have had a few customers pull a wire loose when removing/installing the ECU in the past. This did cause issues but they were able to find the culprit conductor, seat it back in place and fix the issue.
Since your problem seems to only show it ugly head when ambient temps are higher, it does not seem that a loose connection at the ECU will be your issue. But anything is possible I suppose.

BCS
LGB/FJB
 

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So you put in new:
1 Fuel pump
2 Spark plugs
3 Coils
4?
OK. did you do the self-test on 5-15 in manual? there is a self-diagnostic on there that will show the codes the computer stores when checking all the components. I am pretty sure that it will show one with all the times it did this. No use throwing more money at this until you do the self-check. I do believe the dealer check is just a switch that you plug into two wires indicated in the manual, learn that part and perform the check. No use going any further until you get that part done.
 

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So you put in new:
1 Fuel pump
2 Spark plugs
3 Coils
4?
OK. did you do the self-test on 5-15 in manual? there is a self-diagnostic on there that will show the codes the computer stores when checking all the components. I am pretty sure that it will show one with all the times it did this. No use throwing more money at this until you do the self-check. I do believe the dealer check is just a switch that you plug into two wires indicated in the manual, learn that part and perform the check. No use going any further until you get that part done.
The ECU does not "store" the codes in memory.
The codes are only present while there is an active fault present.
Once the ignition is turned off, any fault code that was active will no longer be present in the ECU memory
Normally if a active fault code is present the FI fault indicator will be illuminated.
If you try to pull the code when no active fault is present you will only get C-00 to appear in the odometer display.

BCS
LGB/FJB
 

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They are stored as long as you keep power to the ECM, if you unplug or disconnect the battery they will be erased. check 5-18 manual on how to access memorized codes with a special tool to access the faults.
 

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They are stored as long as you keep power to the ECM, if you unplug or disconnect the battery they will be erased. check 5-18 manual on how to access memorized codes with a special tool to access the faults.

Its great that you take the time to read the manual, most don't bother.
But we are now experiencing the problem with only reading about something and not actually laying hands on and getting real world experience with the issue.

So let me rephrase what was said above in a way that is spelled out entirely and completely so that "everyone" is content and happy with the response given.
Even though the final outcome is still the same as I stated above.

If the fault code is active and the FI fault indicator is illuminated, then you can pull the C-xx code from the bike. This is fact.
If the fault code is not active and the FI fault indicator is not illuminated at the time you try to pull the code, then the only code you will see is C-00. (Just like I said above)
You cannot pull a non active historical code from memory using only the "Special Tool" and have that code display in your odometer read out. This is also fact.
It absolutely will not show you a historical fault code that is no longer active.

Now can you pull a fault history from the ECU using diagnostic software (SDS)?
Yes the P codes can be read from history and cleared using the SDS software. But you cannot read the P codes without the diagnostic software. You can only read the C codes.
Historical non active C codes cannot be pulled from the bike and read by the owner at home using only the "Special Tool".
So for the purpose of this conversation saying the historical codes are stored, is a moot point that does the OP not one bit of good. (So why complicate the conversation)
He does not have SDS software, and I am guessing that you and 99% of everyone who reads this post from now till the end time, will not have diagnostic software in their possession either.

When you turn the key off and then back on, if the fault is not actively present when the key is turned back on, you will not see any other C-xx code except C-00. And no historical fault code will or can be displayed on the bike itself.
You can read about the subject till the cows come home, but it will not change this fact.

Easy enough to try in the real world if you like.
Lift your tank and unplug one of your IAP sensor.
Start the bike and you will see that your FI fault indicator is illuminated.......if you were to pull the fault code using the "Special Tool" at this moment, you would see the fault code corresponds with the IAP sensor you unplugged.
Now turn the key off, then plug the IAP sensor back in. (The fault condition now was present when the key was turned off, so this simulates exactly the situation for historical fault data)
Then start the bike and you will see there is no FI fault indication present and if you try to pull the code you will get nothing other than C-00.
Why, because there is no active fault at that moment and you are not able to retrieve any historical fault data using only the "Special Tool"
Give it try.

FYI, that "Special Tool" is nothing more than a single pole, single throw switch, with two conductors going into a 6 pin male electrical connector.
This plugs into the diagnostic connector on the bike. When the switch is closed it short two pins on the connector.
That's all it does.
And you can do the same thing with a small piece of wire or a paper clip. No need to spend money on a "Special Tool"


BCS
LGB/FJB
 

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Discussion Starter · #57 ·
Yesterday evening I went to my buddy's place. We swapped ECU's. With his ECU in my bike, mine hiccuped a few times. With my ECU in his bike, he did not get any stumble.

When I got home it was running like shit. I left her running and used another key to open the gas cap (great minds think alike?) No vacuum in the cap, no hissing sound opening it up, and even with the cap completely off she ran like crap.

Last night (around 3 in the morning) I took the ignition key switch out and dissected it. No broken pieces, all solder joints intact and strong.

I tried to dig through the archives of this forum. There was a member back in 2012 with a similar issue. In this off-topic post he lists multiple threads he started documenting his issue.
But I don't see the resolution. It looks like he ended up replacing his throttle bodies in late December of 2012, but I don't see a post as to why or if it solved his issues. Any chance any of you old timers remember this guy?
 

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Its great that you take the time to read the manual, most don't bother.
But we are now experiencing the problem with only reading about something and not actually laying hands on and getting real world experience with the issue.

So let me rephrase what was said above in a way that is spelled out entirely and completely so that "everyone" is content and happy with the response given.
Even though the final outcome is still the same as I stated above.

If the fault code is active and the FI fault indicator is illuminated, then you can pull the C-xx code from the bike. This is fact.
If the fault code is not active and the FI fault indicator is not illuminated at the time you try to pull the code, then the only code you will see is C-00. (Just like I said above)
You cannot pull a non active historical code from memory using only the "Special Tool" and have that code display in your odometer read out. This is also fact.
It absolutely will not show you a historical fault code that is no longer active.

Now can you pull a fault history from the ECU using diagnostic software (SDS)?
Yes the P codes can be read from history and cleared using the SDS software. But you cannot read the P codes without the diagnostic software. You can only read the C codes.
Historical non active C codes cannot be pulled from the bike and read by the owner at home using only the "Special Tool".
So for the purpose of this conversation saying the historical codes are stored, is a moot point that does the OP not one bit of good. (So why complicate the conversation)
He does not have SDS software, and I am guessing that you and 99% of everyone who reads this post from now till the end time, will not have diagnostic software in their possession either.

When you turn the key off and then back on, if the fault is not actively present when the key is turned back on, you will not see any other C-xx code except C-00. And no historical fault code will or can be displayed on the bike itself.
You can read about the subject till the cows come home, but it will not change this fact.

Easy enough to try in the real world if you like.
Lift your tank and unplug one of your IAP sensor.
Start the bike and you will see that your FI fault indicator is illuminated.......if you were to pull the fault code using the "Special Tool" at this moment, you would see the fault code corresponds with the IAP sensor you unplugged.
Now turn the key off, then plug the IAP sensor back in. (The fault condition now was present when the key was turned off, so this simulates exactly the situation for historical fault data)
Then start the bike and you will see there is no FI fault indication present and if you try to pull the code you will get nothing other than C-00.
Why, because there is no active fault at that moment and you are not able to retrieve any historical fault data using only the "Special Tool"
Give it try.

FYI, that "Special Tool" is nothing more than a single pole, single throw switch, with two conductors going into a 6 pin male electrical connector.
This plugs into the diagnostic connector on the bike. When the switch is closed it short two pins on the connector.
That's all it does.
And you can do the same thing with a small piece of wire or a paper clip. No need to spend money on a "Special Tool"


BCS
LGB/FJB
I do a lot on vehicle OBII diagnostics I was sure it would store codes since it would only be logical to do so, why wouldn't a computer store faults for problem finding what were they thinking? it takes nothing in coding to do so. Thanks for the more in-depth explanation, many just try to bullshit their way through. I have never had to go that far into my bike. In my experience when you can not get any codes or recognized faults it's usually something really stupid and simple like a broken wire or a loose connector or even some loose hard parts. Might even be a good idea to see how much for a diagnostic read at a dealer for a quick check with software.
 

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Yesterday evening I went to my buddy's place. We swapped ECU's. With his ECU in my bike, mine hiccuped a few times. With my ECU in his bike, he did not get any stumble.

When I got home it was running like shit. I left her running and used another key to open the gas cap (great minds think alike?) No vacuum in the cap, no hissing sound opening it up, and even with the cap completely off she ran like crap.

Last night (around 3 in the morning) I took the ignition key switch out and dissected it. No broken pieces, all solder joints intact and strong.

I tried to dig through the archives of this forum. There was a member back in 2012 with a similar issue. In this off-topic post he lists multiple threads he started documenting his issue.
But I don't see the resolution. It looks like he ended up replacing his throttle bodies in late December of 2012, but I don't see a post as to why or if it solved his issues. Any chance any of you old timers remember this guy?
I remember him because he PM'd me a lot when he started having the stalling issues. I don't know if he found a final fix for it, and even went through all the other threads he had created to see if it was mentioned in any of them. The last thread he linked in the thread you posted he said the fix was in the clutch position switch being bad, but that turned out to not be it either. Maybe he's still trying to figure it out. :)

But his problem was only roughly similar to yours. His bike ran sluggish and then would quit, whereas yours is jumping and jerking but not actually quitting. When his started acting up he had to really work at getting it even revving up again, and I think yours is revving OK until it starts cutting out. His was acting like and old Briggs and Stratton with a plugged up carb.
 

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Did some more research. I got to thinking after you switched ECU's and the problem was still there, then it almost has to be a sensor of some sort. Or a wire going to a sensor, but if it was a wiring problem then it shouldn't be heat related. I found another old thread, actually it was linked back from a Google search, and a member with a similar problem said it was a bad TCS. His problem was more power loss, but it could just be in the way he described it. The problem is I have no idea what a TCS is. It doesn't show up on any of the 109 wiring diagrams I have. Here's the thread if you want to read it. The TCS is usually the Traction Control Sensor, but we don't have traction control. Other than the right hand. :)

If you have the service manual, look at the end of the wiring diagrams for the section titled "Fail-Safe Function" to see what each sensor does if it fails, A lot of them when they fail the ECU just goes to a default value, such as the IAT and ECT units. You probably wouldn't notice it failed other than it set a code. Some will send it into limp mode, but you would notice that as it limits how many rpm's the engine will turn, and it's not much. On the secondary throttle valve you have something very similar to the TPS, it's just called the STP sensor. The secondary actuator opens and closes the secondary throttle plates, the STP measures how far they are opened or closed. That could give the same symptoms as if the TPS went bad. Basically there are a lot of sensors that won't cause your problem according to their fail safe modes, and some that could. Take a look at them.

In the back of my mind I keep going to the crank position sensor. The only ones I can recall failing were when the crank bearings went bad and broke the sensor. Since it's probably a simple Hall effect sensor, I don't know if heat would affect it that much. Maybe BCS can comment on that.
 
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