[DirtieGirtie]

Does it hiccup during the steady cruise, or under load?

Yes.

It does both. Once it starts, I could ride for a few minutes wihtout incident and then it could either hiccup where it feels like the ignition cuts out for half a second. Once that happens I can usually drop the throttle and get on the gas again and it will repeat the hiccup multiple times, sometimes with multiple cuts if I keep on the gas.

Sometimes the issue increases to the point where if I up shift and attempt to accelerate it will bog, stutter, pop, backfire (through exhaust).

I bought a tiny video camera a few years back. I'll dig it up and try to use it on my next trial run.

 

[DirtieGirtie]

I swapped the front plugs. I'm not sure what all the hub-bub is about doing those. I was ready for it to be a total pain in the butt, but it went pretty smoothly. I was REALLY hoping the front ignition coil stick was loose in the as-found condition... it was not. It was snug as a bug in a rug named Doug drinking coffee from a mug and doing drugs (ok, I'll stop now.)

I pulled every connector I could see under the box, tugged on each wire separately on both the male and female sides, and reconnected the connections. I did not see anything of concern. Well, one of the ignition coils had a connector that I thought was excessively loose... "Yay! I found it!"... then I realized it was just the plastic boot covering the connection. The actual connection was tight. "Damn it."

I read this thread last night. Stuttering Power Mystery I never would have thought to look at the ignition key switch with an intermittent issue. One more thing for me to consider.

Thanks guys. To be continued...

 

[Zoom]

[QUOTE="DirtieGirtie, post: 4018267, member: 92532"

I read this thread last night. Stuttering Power Mystery I never would have thought to look at the ignition key switch with an intermittent issue. One more thing for me to consider.

Thanks guys. To be continued...
[/QUOTE]
Slave mentioned checking the ignition switch back early in this thread, which is why I didn't mention it. I know, a lot of things to look at.

Another old tale. I had an old Mustang (car, not the horse) that every once in a while it would shut down after hitting a bump in the road. Always started right back up and ran fine, but it got annoying. I did what you're doing and checked everything I could think of on it, which back then wasn't much. My Dad was with me in it and I told him what was going on, so he reached over and jiggled the key and the thing died. I thought he turned it off, but he just wiggled it. Turned out the switch was all that was wrong with it.

 

[DirtieGirtie]

New plugs. All connections under the tank checked, dialectic grease applied, and reseated. Coils disconnected cleaned and reconnected. Removed extra wiring for speakers and reseated battery connections. Blocked off the pair valves. Stock air filter boxes back on.

Took her for a 45 minute ride. Started off great. Then, maybe 15 minutes in, I had the first hiccup. By the end of the ride she was bucking like a bull again.

Got home and switched the ECU to dealer mode... No fault codes. Made another video. I continually increased the throttle in each throttle pull, so when it starts hiccuping and it looks like I'm just keeping the same throttle position, I'm not... I'm actually continuing to apply more throttle.

New video by Don Carano

photos.app.goo.gl

 

[DirtieGirtie]

Spoke with my brother. He owns his own garage or in Ohio. He feels pretty certain it's a bad coil that shorts out as the temp rises.

I'll order a set now.

 

[Zoom]

I know that's frustrating. I'd rather have something that quit working than something that just happens intermittently like that.

Did you check the ignition switch? Might try getting it to start doing it again and jiggle the key and see what it does. Or jiggle the switch and see if it does it.

 

[Slave #1966]

That sounds very logical, the old type with spark plug wires you could put a timing light on and watch if the light blips with the hiccups. Found lots of bad spark plug wires that way. Also what triggers the voltage to the coils isn't it a hall effect switch in the magneto, maybe someone can chime in but they get very hot buried in there and they like to get jumpy when they are on the way out. I am digging into my service manual now.

 

[Slave #1966]

If you can get your hands on a service manual, 10-22 has an excellent breakdown and test procedure for all the components in the ignition system with the needed values. the crank position sensor can cause all kinds of problems if there are a lot of metal fragments stuck to it, (Magnetic).
It has a good coil testing procedure.

 

[DirtieGirtie]

Thanks, guys.

Zoom - I did try to jiggle, smack, and just generally abuse the key switch right before making that video. I could not get it to hiccup or flicker at all at idle. And If I got the engine up around an RPM where it would do it consistently and jiggle the switch/key, I saw no difference.

Slave - Thanks for posting the page number in the service manual! I hadn't gotten that far yet. I ordered the coils, but if that doesn't solve the issue then I'll move further up the ignition circuit to the crank position sensor. I assume I would have to get the entire system up to operating temp before measuring the CKP sensor peak voltage? I'll come back to that when I get the new coils installed.

New coils are supposed to arrive Thursday or Friday. I'll probably go dormant until then.

 

[Bering_C_Sparky]

While the CPK is possible its not really probable that will be your issue.
If metal fragments were going to stick to something in the generator case (where the CPK is located) they would stick to the Magneto.....its a giant magnet that spins just a mm or 2 away from the CPK pick up.
The magnetic field is so strong it will try to snatch the generator cover out of your hands when removing or installing that cover. So a tiny sliver of metal does not really stand a chance of escaping its grasp.

BCS
LGB/FJB

 

[Slave #1966]

its written in the service manual.

 

[Zoom]

I only recall a couple members that had the CPK go out, and at least in one of those cases the bike just shut down. Another member had to replace his twice, the original and the first replacement just fell apart. I don't recall the reason for them falling apart. I don't see it causing a miss though, seems like they either work or they don't.

Interestingly, I was doing some research on this last night and it seems some folks have had similar symptoms when the gear position sensor was malfunctioning. I'm not sure how it would cause that.

 

[Bering_C_Sparky]

I only recall a couple members that had the CPK go out, and at least in one of those cases the bike just shut down. Another member had to replace his twice, the original and the first replacement just fell apart. I don't recall the reason for them falling apart. I don't see it causing a miss though, seems like they either work or they don't.

Interestingly, I was doing some research on this last night and it seems some folks have had similar symptoms when the gear position sensor was malfunctioning. I'm not sure how it would cause that.

Yep, I had CPK failure on my 2007 and that is exactly what happened, the bike shut totally down instantly, without a sputter or miss, it just shut the bike down completely.
But in full disclosure, my case ended up being a bearing or crank failure and it caused the magneto to take out the CPK completely, snatched it right off the mounting perch.
Got it home, took it apart and replaced the CPK and the bike would idle, but if you gave it even the slightest bit of throttle it would wipe the CPK out again.

If the GPS was toggling values back and forth between a gear and neutral, that could certainly cause an issue.
Neutral ECU maps have different timing maps than the gear maps and the neutral STP maps close the secondary's down to 50% throughout the entire RPM & TP range.
So it would basically be like you were running down the road at a good clip on a carbureted bike and then reaching down and pulling the choke out half way. It would run rich, spit sputter and probably pop and back fire pretty good while under load.
This same thing can happen if the clutch switch is not working properly. When the ECU sees the clutch switch in the "Clutch Disengaged" position (lever pulled) the ECU outputs Neutral maps then as well.

1st, 2nd & 3rd gear maps are a bit different from 4th & 5th as well, but not nearly as drastic as if it were toggling from a gear map to the neutral maps.
The STP are for the most part similar until you hit the STP limiter in 4th & 5th on the earlier models (I am assuming the OP has a 2006 or 2007 model, I have lost track) and the timing maps are a bit more retarded as well. (I don't have my tablet in front of me to tell you how many degrees difference at the moment though)

BCS
LGB/FJB

 

[DirtieGirtie]

1st, 2nd & 3rd gear maps are a bit different from 4th & 5th as well, but not nearly as drastic as if it were toggling from a gear map to the neutral maps.
The STP are for the most part similar until you hit the STP limiter in 4th & 5th on the earlier models (I am assuming the OP has a 2006 or 2007 model, I have lost track) and the timing maps are a bit more retarded as well. (I don't have my tablet in front of me to tell you how many degrees difference at the moment though)

I have a 2012 with stock exhaust. You flashed my ECU for the stock exhaust a month or two ago. Is it safe to assume my 1/2/3 timing maps are no longer retarded?

 

[Bering_C_Sparky]

I have a 2012 with stock exhaust. You flashed my ECU for the stock exhaust a month or two ago. Is it safe to assume my 1/2/3 timing maps are no longer retarded?

We flash a lot of ECU's so its hard to remember everyone, especially when we are all using code names on this site.
If we flashed your ECU, then your your timing maps have been modified for sure.

So to update my previous post for your 2012 model.......(If your ECU were still stock......which yours is not, so none of this applies)
Models 2009 and above (and some 2008 models with 2nd gen ECU's) will have different STP maps in 4th & 5th gear.
On these models only 5th gear is limited and will close the secondary's down at around 5850 RPM. (On a stock ECU)


BCS
LGB/FJB

 

[Bering_C_Sparky]

Did you ever get this issue squared away?
I just read your first post on this thread again and see that you said the issue is only happening when its hot.
That would lead me to think it could be a tank venting issue.
Can't remember off the top of my head if the 2012 is vented from under the tank into a charcoal canister or if its vented though the fuel cap.
Not to tell if you lift the tank up though, if there is another tubing coming from the tank other than the fuel line then its vented from under the tank.
If not then it vents through the fuel cap.

May not be your issue but when I read that it was happening on hot days and not colder days, that is the most obvious thing came to mind.
Less than perfect condition ignition coils/cables also are known to act up when they heat up at times also and may still turn out to be your problem, but figured I would throw the vacuum lock theory out there also. Never hurts to check.
When it starts "hiccupping" try pulling over quick and remove your fuel cap. Listen to see if you hear pressure escape when you do. If so the tank is not venting as well as it should.

BCS
LGB/FJB

 

[DirtieGirtie]

It's been about 150 degrees in my garage for the last week (sight exaggeration) so I have not put everything back together yet... chipping away in 10 minute increments till I can't see through the sweat and have to stop!

My tank vents through the cap. I took the cap apart and cleaned everything. I've also stopped during the hiccups, popped the cap (no obvious hissing sound since cleaning), and get back on the road and the hiccups return immediately.

I was able to replace three of the four coils... I bought the wrong coil to replace the rear coil with the long lead, so I'll put it together like this and see how it goes. I took the down time as an opportunity to paint a few parts. I have to swap the fuel pump over to my new-to-me tank and mount it tonight and then I'll give it a go.

I promise to update once I get it back together.

 

[bigpapaXCT]

It's been about 150 degrees in my garage for the last week (sight exaggeration) so I have not put everything back together yet... chipping away in 10 minute increments till I can't see through the sweat and have to stop!

My tank vents through the cap. I took the cap apart and cleaned everything. I've also stopped during the hiccups, popped the cap (no obvious hissing sound since cleaning), and get back on the road and the hiccups return immediately.

I was able to replace three of the four coils... I bought the wrong coil to replace the rear coil with the long lead, so I'll put it together like this and see how it goes. I took the down time as an opportunity to paint a few parts. I have to swap the fuel pump over to my new-to-me tank and mount it tonight and then I'll give it a go.

I promise to update once I get it back together.

I am very late to the party. I don't think I have ever seen a coil go bad on these, and that is me working on them for over 15 years. What fuel pump did you replace it with? Aftermarket, used oem or new oem? Did you completely drain all the fuel out of your tank or just change the filter and keep adding gas? Reason I ask is that I have had one problem child similar to yours, and I tested and went through the whole thing. Back up pump, new filter, already had just tuned it up and did the new plugs. I added a portion of a bottle of Heet, which is one of the very few products on the market that handles any moisture/water in gas. Seafoam and others do not. Water is heavier than gas and sinks to the bottom of the tank. I am not positive, but I believe he had gotten bad gas at one point and it had settled at the bottom. My theory, which could be wrong is that the shaking agitated it enough that he would get some water into the fuel rails as he was riding. At this point, it has been 2 years and no issues. If you have completely emptied your tank, disregard that part.

 

[DirtieGirtie]

Thanks, Bigpapa!

I thought of the 'water in the gas' theory because it feels very much like that... or at least from what I remember 25 years ago the last time I had water in my gas. But I discounted it because the issue only occurs after the engine has been running for 15-30 minutes, never on a cold engine.

Also, I don't seek out non-ethanol fuel (none around me). My understanding is that ethanol actually does the same thing as Heet; it allows water to be dissolved into the gas and burnt. I think it's why so few people nowadays know what it feels like to have water in your gas line!

 

[Bering_C_Sparky]

Ethanol is hygroscopic, it absorbs and holds onto moisture like a sponge. So ethanol in fuel actual contributes to moisture issues.
Especially if it sits in the tank for long periods of time an absorbs enough moisture to become fully saturated.

At the start of each riding season I always get a few customers from the northern US & Canada contact me saying their bikes don't run well after they take them out of storage.
I have them dump the tank, install new fresh fuel and their problem magically goes away.

It's not a huge issue putting 5 gallons of fuel with 10% ethanol in your bike as long as you are riding the bike, using the fuel up and refilling the tank often. I run 93 octane pump gas with <10% ethanol in my bikes and that is the fuel we build up our ECU tunes with also.
But you never see fuel with ethanol being sold at marinas for boats. Boats often sit for long periods of time and the ethanol in the fuel causes all sorts of issues.

Ethanol is added to fuel to "improve" emission quality (so they say). But its really just a government feel good thing for the greenies. Sure the emission sniffer reading will show lower emissions coming from your exhaust, but you get less fuel efficiency by adding the ethanol. So you end up being able to travel less distance on a tank than you would burning pure gasoline.
You still end up using nearly the same amount of actual gasoline to cover the same distance.....so its not actually benefitting the environment in the way the government portrays it to push their socialist agenda..
Follow the money and then you see the real reason ethanol is being added to fuel.

I owned a air conditioning & refrigeration company for about 13 years and we had the same issue when the Montreal Protocol kicked in. Pure refrigerants started being phased out & blended refrigerants became more common place. Many of these new refrigerants required new synthetic oils be used in the compressors instead of mineral oil. These new oils were also hygroscopic and you had to really watch what you were doing when you opened a system up. If you left the system open to atmosphere for even short periods of time, the oil would become saturated with moisture and make your life miserable trying to get rid of it. Even after installing new filter dryers and pulling deep vacuum.

Lots of info on the internet about ethanol in fuel, the link below sums it up pretty well.
Try using DuckDuckGo instead of Google, Yahoo or Bing if you search for info, you will get a lot less propaganda and more factual info on the subject

4 Things You Need to Know About Ethanol Fuel

Ethanol is a fact of life now, with 10% ethanol blends being commonplace for a number of years. See what you need to know about ethanol.

www.bellperformance.com

BCS
LGB/FJB