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Hey Dommy,

One thing I did not see you mention was the pushpin modification. Have you already done that? It permits more oil to the clutch plates.
Cheers!
 
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Discussion Starter · #23 ·
The way you describe the clutch action, it kind of sounds like either the master or slave is not holding pressure. When/if you get in there, see if the o-rings are replaceable. It's like when the brake master cylinder on a auto is going bad, they start leaking fluid around the cylinder and the brakes won't stay as firmly engaged. Same for the slave cylinder or brake caliper on a car.

And did they happen to say why the 2007 clutch worked but the 2019 didn't? Odd that if the newer one was installed with all the correct parts that it would work less well than the older one.
Yes, I know that master cylinders are serviceable. This is a point that I'm going to work on when I'll take the bike to the Suzuki mechanics again.

Regarding the 2007 vs. 2019 clutch, they measured the springs strength and the 2007 springs are harder to compress. They did not say what the exact reason of the 2019 kit failure on my bike could be, but it's possible that using the hydro clutch on a 2019 is more prone to slippage than on a 2007.

Of note, the Suzuki mechanics at this workshop told me that my '9 is the first one that they ever worked on, although this Suzuki dealer is well known in the area and was awarded by Suzuki Italy for the best workshop service in 2007 and 2009.
 

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The fact that they keep telling you the hydraulic clutch may be issue on the newer style clutch stack v/s the older style clutch stack is enough to tell me you should find another mechanic.
If they have never worked on a M109R before then they likely have the adjustment too tight and your fix may be as easy as slacking the slave cylinder adjustment a bit.
Adjusting the clutch play too tight is pretty common for anyone who has not worked a M109R.

BCS
 

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Discussion Starter · #25 ·
The hydraulic clutch v/s cable has nothing at all to do with your clutch slipping if either are adjusted correctly.
BCS
I tend to disagree on this point.
I noticed substantial slippage in 3rd and 4th gear under heavy load as soon as the 2019 clutch kit was installed, while this never happened with the 2007 kit (actually with the 2007 kit I felt a very minor slippage only in 2nd gear, but nothing more - with the stock cable no slippage at all though).

Because of this I pushed the slave cylinder's arm more upwards by acting on the 2 x 13 nuts on the cylinder's threaded section (red arrows in the picture) and indeed this removed the slippage for approx. 500 Km, but slippage came back. I repeated this process a couple of time, until the nuts were completely screwed in and I could not raise the arm anymore.

So it may be possible that the hydro clutch is not that compatible with the 2nd generation clutch kit.


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Discussion Starter · #27 ·
Easy enough to verify, just remove your lower engine cover, pull your clutch lever and see that the arm moves to disengage the clutch. Hold the clutch lever in for a minute or two and see if the spring return on the arm allows the arm to move back toward the clutch engaged positon......if it does not then the hydraulic cylinders are not leaking by.

But even if the seal in the MC was leaking it would prevent the clutch from disengaging....not prevent it from fully engaging causing the clutch stack to slip as the OP is reporting.

BCS
This could be a good test to do to evaluate the slave cylinder's operation. Nevertheless I'd like to point out that although the clutch lever pull becomes softer upon not using it for a while (like on a long straight road without traffic) and then suddenly regains all the pull effort after reusing it to change gear, this happens only with the engine running and not at all with engine off (when the lever pull is always constant).

Indeed the mechanics said that they think it's the vibrations that may cause this variation of effort at the lever pull.
 

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Discussion Starter · #28 ·
Hey Dommy,

One thing I did not see you mention was the pushpin modification. Have you already done that? It permits more oil to the clutch plates.
Cheers!
Yes, the pushpin modification was done in 2013 and it removed completely the clutch shudder.
 
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Discussion Starter · #29 ·
The fact that they keep telling you the hydraulic clutch may be issue on the newer style clutch stack v/s the older style clutch stack is enough to tell me you should find another mechanic.
If they have never worked on a M109R before then they likely have the adjustment too tight and your fix may as easy as slacking the slave cylinder adjustment a bit.
Adjusting the clutch play too tight is pretty common for anyone who has not worked a M109R.
BCS
Excuse me sir, I think that you are a bit too self-confident ...

The '9 clutch was a little PITA with the cable for the need to adjust its slack frequently at the arm behind the engine carter and at the lever, and this was one of the reasons why many people opted for the hydro clutch (its self-adjusting).
Apart the cable clutch slack, a clutch is simply a clutch and the '9's clutch is not at all that complicated (indeed the '9 come with no electronics at all).

Are you so sure that these Suzuki mechanics are so incompetent? At the moment there's no clutch slipping at all after having mounted a 1st generation clutch kit. Would this be of negligible importance??
 

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Discussion Starter · #30 ·

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All I can do is point you in the right direction...... hydraulic or cable makes no difference if both are working and adjusted properly......this is 100% for sure with no exception.
All either one is doing is moving the arm, if either is adjusted properly and allowing the arm to return fully under spring pressure then that's all there is to that portion.
If the arm is returning fully, then explain to me how the hydraulic clutch could be a factor?
If the arm is not returning fully then its most likely going to be an adjustment issue, just as I said.

You may indeed want to switch back to the beefier springs from the 2007 pressure plate but that has nothing to do with the hydraulic clutch portion.

I have led you to the water hole, its up to you to lean over and get a drink.
Good luck in your endeavor.

BCS
 

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Discussion Starter · #33 ·
I've said too much , I'll just sit back and watch the comedy.
Uh ... your life? The comedy of your life? Then let it be, I will buy you a ton of popcorn so that you can relax in you armchair to watch your comedy.

Jokes apart, I'm 53 and I learnt long ago not to bother with people spitting useless comments like yours.
 

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Discussion Starter · #34 ·
All I can do is point you in the right direction...... hydraulic or cable makes no difference if both are working and adjusted properly......this is 100% for sure with no exception. BCS
You know ... it's that "100% for sure" that I greatly dislike. Who are you, a magician with the glass ball?
I admit that I appreciate your effort here on the board to help people, but when you say 100% sure you should also show evidence of this.
I started with the 1st generation clutch kit with stock cable, next moved to hydro clutch in 2013 (old design), next changed to 2nd generation clutch kit and therefore I can comment on my personal experience about the relationship between these 3 elements. What yours??
 

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Discussion Starter · #35 ·
All either one is doing is moving the arm, if either is adjusted properly and allowing the arm to return fully under spring pressure then that's all there is to that portion.
If the arm is returning fully, then explain to me how the hydraulic clutch could be a factor?
If the arm is not returning fully then its most likely going to be an adjustment issue, just as I said.
BCS
The world may be a bit more complex then what we like to think.

I concur that it's necessary for the slave cylinder's arm to return to its full extended position to allow the clutch arm to return completely under the force of its spring and so to have the clutch discs to grab. This is what I and the Suzuki mechanics confirmed to happen with my slave cylinder, but one thing is to reach this extended position when the engine is not running or when you do not ride the bike, another thing is that the cylinder's arm effectively is firmly locked in its extended position also under the effect of the engine's vibration and you can't simply check this while you're riding the bike (unless you're a stuntman, for example).

Indeed I already mentioned before in this thread that the pull at my clutch lever is not constant, in that the pull is hard and consistent along its range with the engine not running, but it becomes softer for the first 50% of its range upon riding the bike, under vibrations. But the pull return strong after pressing the lever once more (mimicking a oil pumping action). And this may be the mother of all my problems with my clutch setup and this is what the mechanics suspect.

Also others here offered that either my master or slave cylinder might be not completely in order due to some oil passage caused by bad O-rings and I think this might be a plausible explanation of my problem. Since my cylinders were installed in 2013 and I've totaled 100K Km, why should they be still in perfect shape?? I will contact the supplier and investigate on this.
 

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Discussion Starter · #36 ·
You may indeed want to switch back to the beefier springs from the 2007 pressure plate but that has nothing to do with the hydraulic clutch portion.
BCS
I'm sure that Suzuki engineers had their reasons when they designed the 2nd generation clutch kit, but I'm also pretty sure that when they did it they thought only about the stock clutch cable, not also about an alternative hydro clutch kit designed by someone here on the board (although I think it was a very good idea - thanks Rainey again for this) and using a Suzuki C90 model bike's master cylinder.

I think that the 1st generation clutch kit's springs are so strong that they could compensate for a hydro slave cylinder starting going bad, but that the 2nd generation kit's softer springs might not be so effective at preventing clutch slippage with a bad cylinder.

Once again, I do not share your absolute faith in a tentative hydro clutch kit.
 

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Discussion Starter · #37 ·
I have led you to the water hole, its up to you to lean over and get a drink.
Good luck in your endeavor.
BCS
My endeavor has already reached a good step in the resolution of my problem, because I had installed a 1st generation clutch kit and this removed all clutch slippage even with my hydro clutch setup that possibly is starting to deteriorate.

Of note, I did that especially because the clutch discs that I had before (2nd generation) were nearly destroyed (they found a big deposit of cork in my clutch basket and some of the metal disks were discolored in blue, a sign that the metal was cooked up to probably 300 - 400 °C). Si I did not have other choice.

Your self-confidence could be good to have, but I prefer to drink not only from that water hole that you indicated to me. I was supported by a team of professional mechanics working here --> https://www.miazzon.com/

I apologize for the Italian, but I tell you that they're well respected in their field, even if my '9 is the first one that they've worked on. So persisting to say that they do not know what they do is ridiculous.

Another question to you ... if the 2nd generation clutch kit is a modification of the 1st one, while it's still possible to order both of them from Suzuki??

Sometimes you remind me of a Facebook influencer ...
 

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You know ... it's that "100% for sure" that I greatly dislike. Who are you, a magician with the glass ball?
I admit that I appreciate your effort here on the board to help people, but when you say 100% sure you should also show evidence of this.
I started with the 1st generation clutch kit with stock cable, next moved to hydro clutch in 2013 (old design), next changed to 2nd generation clutch kit and therefore I can comment on my personal experience about the relationship between these 3 elements. What yours??
Well bud, not sure what to tell you then.
You came here asking for help and the information I gave you is correct.
If you don't agree then I guess just keep taking your bike back to the dealer and continue to shell out cash until you feel you finally get the answer you are looking for.
Or keep tinkering with it until you figure out for yourself.

Good luck to ya.

:p*Let's Go Brandon*:p
 

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My endeavor has already reached a good step in the resolution of my problem, because I had installed a 1st generation clutch kit and this removed all clutch slippage even with my hydro clutch setup that possibly is starting to deteriorate.

Of note, I did that especially because the clutch discs that I had before (2nd generation) were nearly destroyed (they found a big deposit of cork in my clutch basket and some of the metal disks were discolored in blue, a sign that the metal was cooked up to probably 300 - 400 °C). Si I did not have other choice.

Your self-confidence could be good to have, but I prefer to drink not only from that water hole that you indicated to me. I was supported by a team of professional mechanics working here --> https://www.miazzon.com/

I apologize for the Italian, but I tell you that they're well respected in their field, even if my '9 is the first one that they've worked on. So persisting to say that they do not know what they do is ridiculous.

Another question to you ... if the 2nd generation clutch kit is a modification of the 1st one, while it's still possible to order both of them from Suzuki??

Sometimes you remind me of a Facebook influencer ...
.... if the 2nd generation clutch kit is a modification of the 1st one, while it's still possible to order both of them from Suzuki??
As far as I know,
Suzuki never admited that 1st generation clutch is not good, they simply designed new one for the 2010 and up bikes. If you order clutch parts for the earlier years bikes, you get the 1st gen. clutch parts, and if you order clutch parts for 2010 and up, you get 2nd gen. parts. Rainey found out that they are interchangeable, and many of us did interchange them... Again, Suzuki did not say anywhere the clutches are interchangeable....
 

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.... if the 2nd generation clutch kit is a modification of the 1st one, while it's still possible to order both of them from Suzuki??
As far as I know,
Suzuki never admited that 1st generation clutch is not good, they simply designed new one for the 2010 and up bikes. If you order clutch parts for the earlier years bikes, you get the 1st gen. clutch parts, and if you order clutch parts for 2010 and up, you get 2nd gen. parts. Rainey found out that they are interchangeable, and many of us did interchange them... Again, Suzuki did not say anywhere the clutches are interchangeable....
Also, and my apologies for being a cynic, why would Suzuki stop selling parts that they have in stock? My guess is that once the old parts have been sold and stock has been depleted, they will list superceded part numbers.
 
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