Found Clutch Judder/rattle !!!! Update 17/9 - Page 4
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Thread: Found Clutch Judder/rattle !!!! Update 17/9

  1. #91
    Very Active Member JUtah's Avatar
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    Default Re: Found Clutch Judder/rattle !!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by CherryFire
    what Barnett is telling you and how it doesn't really help us.
    It helps in that you all know that Barnett has no plan to make an aftermarket clutch pack for the 109...

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  3. #92

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    Default Re: Found Clutch Judder/rattle !!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by JUtah
    It helps in that you all know that Barnett has no plan to make an aftermarket clutch pack for the 109...

  4. #93
    Very Active Member biker-chicky's Avatar
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    Default Re: Found Clutch Judder/rattle !!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by CherryFire
    so why is that a good thing? does it make you feel more secure to start making one yourself?

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  6. #94
    Very Active Member JUtah's Avatar
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    Default Re: Found Clutch Judder/rattle !!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by biker-chicky
    so why is that a good thing? does it make you feel more secure to start making one yourself?
    Because people can stop wondering if Barnett is going to make an aftermarket clutch... takes that option / thought off the table and now people can expend their energy elsewhere...

  7. #95
    Very Active Member Kev's Avatar
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    Default Re: Found Clutch Judder/rattle !!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by CherryFire
    Hey Casey,
    No problem man, don't feel bad, I know it's confusing.
    It sounds like Barnett is just stating that the plates are different than other bikes but this is almost certainly not causing the issues we are having. It's the springs that are in the clutch HUB that are causing the issues we are having. DLP already sells the spring kit that Barnett was referring to, but it doesn't sound like they (or anyone else) is making the replacement clutch plates for our bike so I guess if we need a new clutch we can only order new OEM friction plates direct from Suzuki. The stronger springs that Barnett is referring to just keep the plates pressed together more firmly to avoid slipping during hard acceleration. They also would make it harder to pull in the clutch, because when you pull in the clutch lever what you are doing is compressing the springs that Barnett sells, and if they are stronger than stock then it will take more effort to compress them. Does that make sense to you? Hope this helps you to understand how a clutch works and what Barnett is telling you and how it doesn't really help us.
    Hey Cherry,

    Another ignoramus here.....but what do the >rattling< springs actually do ? ::)

  8. #96
    Very Active Member biker-chicky's Avatar
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    Default Re: Found Clutch Judder/rattle !!!!

    okay lets keep this thread clean I want to email it to my dealer. Please no BS-ing or stabbing or starting to sling poo.

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  9. #97
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    Default Re: Found Clutch Judder/rattle !!!!

    Thanks brother..

    B/C no slingin goin on here, i have talked before to cherryfire and i am not afraid to say when i do not know something ... when it comes to computers and networking i can help but clutches.. not so much ...

    Casey

    Now back to the subject.... any ideas how to fix this clutch issue

  10. #98

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    Default Re: Found Clutch Judder/rattle !!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Kev
    Hey Cherry,

    Another ignoramus here.....but what do the >rattling< springs actually do ? ::)
    I'm not quite sure, I just know that they are different than the springs that Barnett already offers. Some sort of cushioning effect when clutch is engaged or disengaged I think.

  11. #99

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    Default Re: Found Clutch Judder/rattle !!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by cowboy casey
    Thanks brother..

    B/C no slingin goin on here, i have talked before to cherryfire and i am not afraid to say when i do not know something ... when it comes to computers and networking i can help but clutches.. not so much ...

    Casey

    Now back to the subject.... any ideas how to fix this clutch issue
    Casey,
    I'm also a computer/networking geek.

  12. #100
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    Default Re: Found Clutch Judder/rattle !!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by biker-chicky
    okay lets keep this thread clean I want to email it to my dealer. Please no BS-ing or stabbing or starting to sling poo.
    yea baby, yea
    2007 red zook 109r<br />2008 yamaha raider<br />2000 honda shadow vlx600<br />2005 red zook xl7<br />1998 zook quadrunner 500<br />1996 zook king quad 300

  13. #101
    Very Active Member CBR1000DUDE's Avatar
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    Default Re: Found Clutch Judder/rattle !!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by CherryFire
    I'm not quite sure, I just know that they are different than the springs that Barnett already offers. Some sort of cushioning effect when clutch is engaged or disengaged I think.
    You are partially correct, read the following description:
    A friction plate for a vehicle clutch assembly having an improved damper spring. The damper spring includes a compression coil spring member which is encapsulated within an elastomer. The elastomer fills the interior of the spring and the spaces between the individual spring coils. The spring-elastomer combination has a greater dampening effect than the total dampening effect of the spring and elastomer if acting independent of each other. A plurality of the encapsulated springs are mounted individually in axially aligned openings provided in an inner hub flange, a friction drive plate and a retainer plate, all of which are mounted concentrically with respect to each other, with the hub flange being integral with a clutch hub. The encapsulated spring rotatably couples together the friction drive plate and retainer plate with the hub. Friction elements are mounted on the outer periphery of the drive plate. The encapsulated spring absorbs the shock and reduces chatter upon the friction elements coupling engaging another clutch member, and transmits the coupling drive forces between the drive plate and hub.
    I'm not sure if I understand this entirely, but I get the general idea anyway. Hope this helps.
    A man has got to know his limitations... Harry Callahan

  14. #102
    Very Active Member CBR1000DUDE's Avatar
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    Default Re: Found Clutch Judder/rattle !!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Bluey
    Hey all I am glad to see everyone is exited as myself.

    Let me say I had the harsh Vibe from near new and a slight rattle at idle which got louder I believe the springs to be loose from new but they lost there tension as time went on.

    Yes this should be a warranty issue the springs are either faulty our just to soft for the power of this engine also you cant replace the springs alone they are part of the clutch hub so the whole hub will need to be replaced what I did by bending the tabs down against the spring yes did stop the springs from rattling around but it will get better if the hub is replaced with a new one hopfully with one that is better then the first one lets hope suz has done there home work and also found this weak point. Weak springs !!!

    Why can't the springs be replaced? I can't tell from the photo for sure, but it looks like the 3 stud ends must be bolts that retain the gear to the hub. I read about another munufacturer that coats their springs with urathane to improve the damping ability of the spring. Even if the assemnbly must be pressed apart, it seems to me that this is worth a try. It was assembled somehow, not cast, so it must come apart. The center hub "floats", and the springs damp this movement. Jamming it all together so it can't move will transmit excess vibrations to the drive line and result in the faster wear of those components. This is fine for racing applications (they use solid hub designs), but not for a touring bike.
    I'm not saying that you have made yours a "solid hub" by bending the carrier, but the shock vibration upon clutch engagement has centainly been increased.
    I am so happy that this one thing contributes to so many problems most of us are having and it can be fixed and even if they wipe me of my warranty because I went in with out them doing the work I see the clutch hub is about $200USD which isn't to bad as long as they have upgraded the springs

    Again let me say don't let anyone tell you the rattle at idle and the vibe on accel is normal because this is a big V twin because that is far from the truth it can be fixed !!!!

    The whole job took about 3 hours and the moment you start her up you will notice the change in your engine
    A man has got to know his limitations... Harry Callahan

  15. #103
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    Default Re: Found Clutch Judder/rattle !!!!

    Ok I just got this email back from the President of Suzuki Masaaki (Mac) Kato in Japan I believe, this is at lest a start


    Dear Mr. Duog Bluey

    Thank you very much for your e-mail regarding the quality information for our M109R.

    The after-service staff in Suzuki Australia Private Limited that is our Motorcycle Distributor in Australia will reply to your e-mail soon.

    Best Regards,

    Masaaki (Mac) Kato


    Had to laugh a bit, see what he called me

    My name is Doug Bazley I did not mention Bluey in my email to him, so I am thinking maybe he has read this thread because I did send him a link to the forum so maybe he will look into this problem.

    I must thank Lamonster after speaking with him this morning he sent me the email address of Masaaki (Mac) Kato and I sent him the email that I had posted on here and sent to Australia's Suzuki head office which I have not heard back from yet maybe he will get them going on this lets hope.




  16. #104
    Very Active Member jazzman's Avatar
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    Default Re: Found Clutch Judder/rattle !!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Bluey
    Ok I just got this email back from the President of Suzuki Masaaki (Mac) Kato in Japan I believe, this is at lest a start


    Dear Mr. Duog Bluey

    Thank you very much for your e-mail regarding the quality information for our M109R.

    The after-service staff in Suzuki Australia Private Limited that is our Motorcycle Distributor in Australia will reply to your e-mail soon.

    Best Regards,

    Masaaki (Mac) Kato


    Had to laugh a bit, see what he called me

    My name is Doug Bazley I did not mention Bluey in my email to him, so I am thinking maybe he has read this thread because I did send him a link to the forum so maybe he will look into this problem.

    I must thank Lamonster after speaking with him this morning he sent me the email address of Masaaki (Mac) Kato and I sent him the email that I had posted on here and sent to Australia's Suzuki head office which I have not heard back from yet maybe he will get them going on this lets hope.



    Ok that's at least encouraging that you got a response. It's a small step on Suzuki's part. Now lets see if they keep walking in the right direction.

    Jazz

  17. #105
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    Default Re: Found Clutch Judder/rattle !!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by CBR1000DUDE
    Yes I agree we should be able to dismantle the hub and replace the springs they are not bolts but a pressed pin into the alloy casing, once the gasket and nut arrives I intend to pull mine again and attempt to fit stronger springs.
    The temporary fix that I did to mine has not stopped whats left of the springs doing most of the dampening I made the tabs tight enough so the springs do not move around but they can still compress whats left in them.

  18. #106

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    Default Re: Found Clutch Judder/rattle !!!!

    Thats a great response i reckon Doug, hell he's the PRESIDENT of Suzuki Japan, its not much higher to the top in these companys. As we spoke this morning, i'm sure he'll be making a couple phone calls to Suzuki Austraila to start with, and i agree these guys at the top of the tree would'nt even get to hear of these types of problems with their products. These blokes only get brought into things when there's a serious problem with something or someone under them.
    This will be truly a great bike once this is corrected.


  19. #107
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    Default Re: Found Clutch Judder/rattle !!!!

    One other thing in his email I could see where Mr Masaaki (Mac) Kato had forwarded my email on to 3 other persons

  20. #108

    Default Re: Found Clutch Judder/rattle !!!!

    Bluey I'm new to the posting scene but would like to thank you for your effort to where ever this goes for all of us.and to say that my bike a 06 109 has had the entire problem for about 2 months.the dealer was checking it out for me with zuc a came up with the loose nut theory.I'm bring in my bike Friday and in hand hope to help my dealer out with some insight you have given all of us.my warranty expires Sept.16 but they said they would honor me because i have had this problem for a while.there a great dealership and a good bunch of gearheads.BANZI MOTORSPORTS a little plug for them.i also got extra warranty. but thanks so much for your time and helpfulness to a on going problem that effects so many of our M109RIDERS.

  21. #109
    Active Member jammer's Avatar
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    Default Re: Found Clutch Judder/rattle !!!!

    Hello everyone

    i just wanted to say that i have to agree with Bluey because i have been a tech at ford truck dealer for some years now and the old f series super duty trucks used what was called a dual mass flywheel which was a two piece design with the same kind of springs and kinda serves the same purpose as the basket in the bike and like Bluey said and when the springs get loose it felt like you were running on 2 of 8 cylinders and it sounded like a paint shaker with nuts and bolt in the paint can and the clutch was grabby and chattery i know I'm describing a truck but the symptoms and principles of operation are basically the same this seems to be the root cause i think you have found the problem Bluey .

  22. #110

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    Default Follow up for Bluey

    I have just sent a follow up letter to suzuki as I'm sure many have. Thanks Bluey for initiating this problem and sheeting it home to those who can get something done. Letter as below.

    Mylord


    To whom it may concern,

    I purchased my M109R from Witch Cycles in Rockingham Western Australia.

    As per the following letter that has already been sent to you, I also have similar problems occurring on my M109R. As yet I have not experienced the tube nut coming loose but that will only be evident once it happens, which in itself will be very inconvenient and possibly dangerous, but I do have a rear brake rotor that is becoming looser and will eventually need replacing. My greatest problem at the moment is the excessive vibration and clutch shudder when attempting to take off from a stationary position and the vibration under acceleration and also the possibility that further problems may result from this vibration.

    As per the letter sent to you which is below there apparently is a solution to this clutch shudder problem .

    My question to you is will Suzuki be prepared to rectify these issues for those customers who support Suzuki and bought this bike in good faith .

    A reply as to your position and intentionis greatly anticipated and appreciated.


  23. #111

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    Default Re: Found Clutch Judder/rattle !!!!

    There are several good posts in this thread that at least offer some hope for the vibration, noise, shuddering clutch issues, and that possibly might even help explain some of the other 109 drive train concerns in general.
    As others have said, I think it behooves us to continue letting our dealers and Suzuki know what's going on. This clutch hub problem clearly looks like something they should be involved in fixing. If they disagree, I'd like to hear their reasoning and some assurance we're not in danger of much more than personal disappointment in their engineering and follow through.
    I plan on ordering a new clutch hub to see how long it takes to get one and whether it works any better. So far Shawmut hills in Grand Rapids Mi. seems to have the best price.

    http://www.shawmuthills.com/fiche_select.asp

    In the meantime, as soon as I return from taking my partner on the two week seafood vacation to Cape Cod and Maine that I promised her, I intend to tear mine down, and try Bluey's temp fix.
    I hope everyone keeps posting up to this thread on how they're coming with their personal attempts at alleviating these problems that interfere with our enjoyment of our fine 109s.
    jer



  24. #112
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    Default Re: Found Clutch Judder/rattle !!!!

    Hey Jer just one thing if you fit a new hub be sure to check the springs are firm in the holder and please beware that you may just fitting a hub the same as the one you are pulling out. good luck

  25. #113
    Very Active Member CBR1000DUDE's Avatar
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    Default Re: Found Clutch Judder/rattle !!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Bluey
    Hey Jer just one thing if you fit a new hub be sure to check the springs are firm in the holder and please beware that you may just fitting a hub the same as the one you are pulling out. good luck
    I had never felt this judder/clutch grabbing, wheel hop sensation before yesterday. I usually give it just enough gas to take off, go about 10 to 20 feet, and then hit the throttle if I want faster acceleration. I got into this habit from riding my 1500 Intruder for 6 years. On it, if you revved it up and tried to engage the clutch, it would grab so hard it made a loud clunk and acted like you had just engaged it all at once even if you were feathering it. I had attributed this to the hydraulic clutch release. Now, I'm not so sure. Yesterday, I made an conscious effort to over rev it (my 9), and feather the clutch engagement. It juddered, made a clunk, and made the rear wheel hop 2 or 3 times when it took off. It did it every time. When I returned to my normal engagement style, it was smooth as butter.
    So now, I'm really interested in how this comes out, and will follow this thread with anticipation. I'm considering bending the tabs, I even have a copper hammer (an oldie). I would rather find out about taking the hub to a machine shop, having it pressed apart, and replacing the springs with heavier ones, or having stock springs coated with Urethane. Since you are planning on disassembling your hub already, I'll wait for your results.
    A man has got to know his limitations... Harry Callahan

  26. #114

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    Default Re: Found Clutch Judder/rattle !!!!

    Heres another likely result of our out of balance bikes, hell the 9 is trying to act like a HD, have a look, nuts dropping off. https://www.m109riders.com/forum/inde...c,20011.0.html And not forgetting cracked/broken tail shaft housings, blowing up 2nd gear, blinkers dropping off, clutch hub nuts falling off, harshness between 3000/4000rpm, and of course the infamous clutch shudder/hesitation at take off. I know theres others including vibrating mirrors at over 150mph.

  27. #115
    Very Active Member Kev's Avatar
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    Default Re: Found Clutch Judder/rattle !!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by bumcrackbob
    Heres another likely result of our out of balance bikes, hell the 9 is trying to act like a HD, have a look, nuts dropping off. https://www.m109riders.com/forum/inde...c,20011.0.html And not forgetting cracked/broken tail shaft housings, blowing up 2nd gear, blinkers dropping off, clutch hub nuts falling off, harshness between 3000/4000rpm, and of course the infamous clutch shudder/hesitation at take off. I know theres others including vibrating mirrors at over 150mph.
    Hey Bumcrack....and yer point IS ::)

  28. #116

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    Default Re: Found Clutch Judder/rattle !!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Kev
    Hey Bumcrack....and yer point IS ::)
    Could clutch vibration have loosened this exhaust bolt also. Vibration is probably the cause (direct or indirectly) of a lot of these problems.

  29. #117
    Very Active Member Kev's Avatar
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    Default Re: Found Clutch Judder/rattle !!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by bumcrackbob
    Could clutch vibration have loosened this exhaust bolt also. Vibration is probably the cause (direct or indirectly) of a lot of these problems.
    Man it's a BIG V-twin and they do tend to vibrate a tad

    But actually why I asked was cos I didn't know if you were jokin or not when ya said...
    "at over 150mph."....I thought maybe ya were just havin a go at folks

  30. #118
    Very Active Member Valiant's Avatar
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    Default Re: Found Clutch Judder/rattle !!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by CBR1000DUDE
    I had never felt this judder/clutch grabbing, wheel hop sensation before yesterday. I usually give it just enough gas to take off, go about 10 to 20 feet, and then hit the throttle if I want faster acceleration. I got into this habit from riding my 1500 Intruder for 6 years. On it, if you revved it up and tried to engage the clutch, it would grab so hard it made a loud clunk and acted like you had just engaged it all at once even if you were feathering it. I had attributed this to the hydraulic clutch release. Now, I'm not so sure. Yesterday, I made an conscious effort to over rev it (my 9), and feather the clutch engagement. It juddered, made a clunk, and made the rear wheel hop 2 or 3 times when it took off. It did it every time. When I returned to my normal engagement style, it was smooth as butter.
    So now, I'm really interested in how this comes out, and will follow this thread with anticipation. I'm considering bending the tabs, I even have a copper hammer (an oldie). I would rather find out about taking the hub to a machine shop, having it pressed apart, and replacing the springs with heavier ones, or having stock springs coated with Urethane. Since you are planning on disassembling your hub already, I'll wait for your results.
    Yeah, mine does just like that. So I just don't rev hard when letting out the clutch.

  31. #119

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    Default Re: Found Clutch Judder/rattle !!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Kev
    Man it's a BIG V-twin and they do tend to vibrate a tad

    But actually why I asked was cos I didn't know if you were jokin or not when ya said...
    "at over 150mph."....I thought maybe ya were just havin a go at folks
    That part was a joke, Aussie humour mate, even a big twin can be tamed a tad, it should'nt shake your nuts loose (that was a joke)

  32. #120

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    Default Re: Found Clutch Judder/rattle !!!!

    Hi Bluey

    It sounds exactly like the problem i have! 09/07 model. I have 280 km's on mine. If i give it full throttle from low rpm ie: 1900 rpm its just the normal v twin vibration. But right around 3000 rpm there is a severe vibration - like if you put 20 batteries in a vibrator instead of 2 (please excuse the explination but im at a lack of a better one!)

    It is also very noisy if I dont pull the clutch lever. I'll be taking it to my dealer either monday or Im really itching to take it apart right now, any idea how long the job took?

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