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    Default Dyno or No Dyno

    Hey everyone I have a quick question, I have a 2018 B.O.S.S. Edition I recently installed a Freedom Performance Sharp Curve Radius Exhaust as well as a High Flow Dual Intake Air Cleaner Filter Kit. I also have a PCV that is not installed due to mixed reviews, some say I need to install it some say don't install it just flash the ECU and others say do both. My question is with me having those 2 performance parts should I get my bike tuned, also what should I do about the PCV install or not install. Does anyone else have this type of set up if so how much performance difference did you receive and what was your before and after Dyno Results.

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    Quote Originally Posted by monroekc17 View Post
    Hey everyone I have a quick question, I have a 2018 B.O.S.S. Edition I recently installed a Freedom Performance Sharp Curve Radius Exhaust as well as a High Flow Dual Intake Air Cleaner Filter Kit. I also have a PCV that is not installed due to mixed reviews, some say I need to install it some say don't install it just flash the ECU and others say do both. My question is with me having those 2 performance parts should I get my bike tuned, also what should I do about the PCV install or not install. Does anyone else have this type of set up if so how much performance difference did you receive and what was your before and after Dyno Results.

    I would either just get your ECU flashed via mail order (BCS) or find a tuner that can flash the ECU while on the dyno instead of using a PCV.

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    Whatever you decide to do, do something.

    Because you are running really lean with those mods and no tuning.
    Last edited by Stalker; 6 Days Ago at 11:59 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by monroekc17 View Post
    Hey everyone I have a quick question, I have a 2018 B.O.S.S. Edition I recently installed a Freedom Performance Sharp Curve Radius Exhaust as well as a High Flow Dual Intake Air Cleaner Filter Kit. I also have a PCV that is not installed due to mixed reviews, some say I need to install it some say don't install it just flash the ECU and others say do both. My question is with me having those 2 performance parts should I get my bike tuned, also what should I do about the PCV install or not install. Does anyone else have this type of set up if so how much performance difference did you receive and what was your before and after Dyno Results.
    My recommendation is to get rid of the PCV, and go with a Full ECU Flash from BCS. No Fuel Tuner can provide what you can get out of a fully flashed ECU. BCSs Full ECU Flashes are producing amazing results, according to those who have received his services. Neither the FP Sharp Curve Radius exhaust or the High Flow Dual Air Intakes you have are going to increase your bikes performance. However, the Full ECU Flash from BCS is an absolute game changer. Most, if not all, have stated it transformed their 9s into something they never thought possible or expected. Very soon, Im removing my Fuel Tuners, and having the Full ECU Flash performed on all three of my 9s.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JUDAH-9 View Post
    My recommendation is to get rid of the PCV, and go with a Full ECU Flash from BCS. No Fuel Tuner can provide what you can get out of a fully flashed ECU. BCSs Full ECU Flashes are producing amazing results, according to those who have received his services. Neither the FP Sharp Curve Radius exhaust or the High Flow Dual Air Intakes you have are going to increase your bikes performance. However, the Full ECU Flash from BCS is an absolute game changer. Most, if not all, have stated it transformed their 9s into something they never thought possible or expected. Very soon, Im removing my Fuel Tuners, and having the Full ECU Flash performed on all three of my 9s.
    While you are mostly correct, there is a flip to the above statements. As one FB member is finding out, The ECU flash appears to not be able to handle fuel corrections out side of the factory algorithm--- which is what I warned about. Meaning as you build the engine--- cams, headwork, alternate aspiration, or other work, then an ECU flash may not be able to provide what is needed for proper tuning.
    However, a proper ECU tune will more than handle what is needed for basic bolt on performance--- exhaust, intakes,...
    I am almost always working on a bike. If you have questions and need an answer quickly, just call me. 317-507-0940. Always up late. There will be time for sleep when I am dead!

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    Quote Originally Posted by futurR View Post
    While you are mostly correct, there is a flip to the above statements. As one FB member is finding out, The ECU flash appears to not be able to handle fuel corrections out side of the factory algorithm--- which is what I warned about. Meaning as you build the engine--- cams, headwork, alternate aspiration, or other work, then an ECU flash may not be able to provide what is needed for proper tuning.
    However, a proper ECU tune will more than handle what is needed for basic bolt on performance--- exhaust, intakes,...
    Can you expand on what you are saying above? I am having trouble following the logic.

    The TPS maps in the ECU are static so changing their value directly is no different than tuning a power commander map to ride on top the ECU TPS map.

    The timing maps are static so changing the value in the ECU will give the same result as tuning the static maps in an add on ignition module and having them ride on top the ECU ignition maps.

    The STP maps are static, so they only do what they are told like a good soldier.

    Raising the RPM limiter, and checking some boxes for a few other functions is not going to be any different regardless if the engine is built or not.

    I am sure you agree with what I have said above if you are familiar with the ECU map arrangements.

    I could agree with a statement something like, the bike itself should be tuned specifically for the engine mods done, you should not buy a ECU tune through the mail that was built for a bike that does not have engine mods. But I cannot see how tuning the ECU itself is any different than tuning the aftermarket add on's.

    Other than the IAP being a bit fluid for lack of a better word, everything else is static as far as I am aware.
    Not really understanding what would apply to any type of "Algorithm".
    Running closed loop might but I believe this is a non issue in North America.

    You have to tune the fuel and timing one way or another, I cannot see how one way is really any different than the next, except when tuning the ECU everything is done in one place and tuning with aftermarket products you would need to add many boxes to the bike.
    Fuel module, timing module, TRE, ESE, etc,
    Tuning the ECU takes the place of all these and changing the values in the ECU gives the same end result as changing the static add on maps, does it not?

    Could you give a little more information about your post above to help me better understand?

    Thanks
    Last edited by Stalker; 6 Days Ago at 12:16 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by futurR View Post
    While you are mostly correct, there is a flip to the above statements. As one FB member is finding out, The ECU flash appears to not be able to handle fuel corrections out side of the factory algorithm--- which is what I warned about. Meaning as you build the engine--- cams, headwork, alternate aspiration, or other work, then an ECU flash may not be able to provide what is needed for proper tuning.
    However, a proper ECU tune will more than handle what is needed for basic bolt on performance--- exhaust, intakes,...
    I agree Matt. I remember having that conversation with you, during one of my visits to your shop, while you were working on my Crushed Chromed M109R. Your knowledge and expertise helped me immensely to have a much better understanding between the differences, advantages, and disadvantages of a Fuel Tuner versus a Partial or Full ECU Flash.
    Last edited by JUDAH-9; 5 Days Ago at 06:33 PM.

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    I am no expert, I am barely a novice at the complexities that make up the timing/fuel system on our glorious beasts, but what I do know is that those bolt on programmers only kick in at wide open throttle. Common sense would tell anyone that if you change cam profiles, head work, forced induction, and/or nitrous, that the stock fuel system would need an upgrade as well. The ECM would not be able to adjust for boost, or when you hit the "NOS". An after market ECM and upgraded fuel pump and possibly injectors would have to come into play for an outrageous build.

    Also, I am running a flashed ECM from BCS, and all I can say is the bike is more than I imagined was possible. I know the top end of the RPM range was opened up quite a bit, (2007 M109R ), but the bottom end is incredible. Smooth, unrelenting power. I can break the tire loose pretty much in the first three gears if I hit the throttle hard coming out of a corner usually when I do not won't to. ( When the tire is cold it is useless at holding onto asphalt.) I can't see a PCV doing that.

    Just my two cents.

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    Thanks Judah-9 and StuporDave for getting this thread back on track. I do not have a 9 anymore, but there are some (as well as myself) who are here for information and socialism. After all, I might be making room for M109 number 5
    Last edited by Board Support-2; 3 Days Ago at 03:49 PM.

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    Let's talk fuel maps.
    Attached below is a screen shot of the ECU stock IAP and TPS fuel maps from a 2020 M109R.
    Some bikes have more fuel adjustment maps such as fuel enrichment maps, trim maps, upper and lower injector maps and probably a few other I never heard of.
    With the M109R the two you see below are all we can adjust, at lest with the software I use.

    The first photo is the IAP fuel map. The numbers to the far left are RPM. The numbers across the very top are intake manifold pressure v/s atmospheric pressure in kPA. Or at least that is how I understand it, regardless all we are really conserved about is hitting whatever AFR target we set for each cell.
    The number values in the rest of the graph represent a scaled value for fuel injector pulse width. In other words how log the fuel injector will stay open.
    So if you are doing 2800 rpm and the difference in manifold v/s atmospheric pressure is 49 kPa then the ECU injector pulse width output is 910.

    What does the value 910 represent? Good question and the answer is IDK and it does not really matter. There is much more going on under hood of the software than we can see. 910 in this example is a scaled value in millisecond or microseconds or some other. Again I do not know exactly and it does not matter. I do industrial automation as my main source of income, and under the hood I am sure it has very simmer functions and instructions as the tuning software although the language will be different. So I have an idea what's going on under the hood but its really irrelevant to this conversation.
    All we are worried about when tuning the fuel maps on a M109R is hitting the AFR target we assign to each cell.
    The IAP maps are pretty fluid as said above and bounce around horizontally across the RPM column you are in as the vacuum pressure changes.
    When you are riding at 10% or less throttle position (TP) the IAP map values are what is output to the fuel injectors.

    The second photo below is a stock TPS fuel map.
    The TPS fuel map is used when you are above 10% throttle position.
    On the far left side of the TPS map you have RPM and on the very top of the TPS chart is throttle position (TP)
    This map is pretty cut and dry, it's static. If you are at 18% TP and 2800 rpm the ECU fuel injector pulse width output is 3420.
    Again what does 3420 represent? It does not matter, all we need to know is it is a scaled value that is used by a microprocessor to hold the fuel injector solenoid open for a set specific amount of time.

    When you tune the fuel maps you are trying to make the actual AFR meet your target AFR and nothing more with this bike.
    So if our TPS output value of 3420 from above gives us a AFR of 14.0 and the target AFR we chose for that column is 13.4 then we are lean would need to add to the output value in that cell. If the actual AFR is richer than our target AFR we would subtract from the value in the cell.
    That is pretty much it, there is not much more to it when it comes to fuel maps as far as I am aware.

    Of course you need an eddy current dyno, Wideband O2 sensors, a way to log the AFR and lots of time to speed load the IAP maps and brake load the TPS map as you run down each column to log the AFR of each cell. Then change the values in each cell that does not meet target AFR, write the new values to the ECU and repeat this process until every cells AFR matches your target AFR for that cell.

    You must have the correct equipment in order to tune, you cannot just change the values in the cells and hope you come up with something good......you will not.

    Now lets talk Power Commander 5 a bit.

    The power commander works much the same as we discussed in the TPS map section above. But the power commander does not change the actual values in the ECU maps. The power commander map piggybacks the ECU map. So if you were to add a positive value in the power commander map it will add this amount in addition to the stock ECU pulse width. The ECU has no idea the power commander is even on the bike and functions as if it were stock.

    If you look at the power commander map in photo 3 below, you can see there are no where near as many columns as the ECU map itself has.
    When you change 1 cell in the power commander map that value is used to increase the pulsewidth value of several cells of the ECU fuel map. So the tuning cabablily is more course compared to tuning the ECU itself.
    I have also heard the the power commander is only TPS based but I have never one to be sure myself.

    Same goes for some of the cheaper tuners that have little dials (or Pots) you turn to supposedly "tune with".
    These are running a single static map and when you twist the little dials you are either adding or subtracting fuel over a very large area of the map and a much more course tuning method compared to even the power commander.
    I can tell you as someone who has spent quite a bit of time logging AFR feedback both on and off the dyno, this method is marginal at best and that is being very nice about it.
    Will the bike run, sure it will. The bike will run if you tune nothing, I see people say their bike runs great with no tuning all the time on FB, but it is running very lean for sure.
    The bike will run no matter if the AFR is 12.0 or 18.00. Question is are you doing damage to the bike, how good is the bike really running or how good could bike run if it was tuned properly.

    Another kind of aftermarket tuner is the Auto Tuner such as the Cobra Power Pro.
    I know little about these tuner, and they are supposed to be a magic box that keeps your AFR perfect no matter what.
    From the few times I have a bike on the dyno with one these, the best I can tell is they just throw a LOT of fuel at the injectors during acceleration. Way too much fuel from the result I have seen with my own eyes.
    I have posted those results on this forum before and will see if I can find them again.

    So you can see from the examples above that tuning the OEM ECU maps directly you are able to tune at a much finer more detailed level than any of the aftermarket tuners discussed. We have only discussed fuel so far, which all these aftermarket tuners do. You are able to much more when tuning the ECU directly and we can talk more about these other features later.

    As for what Matt posted above about an algorithm, I am not sure what he meant by that myself.
    I sent him a message to see if he will expand in more detail.
    As far as I am aware the IAP fuel maps are simply based on intake manifold pressure v/s atmospheric pressure and RPM to give a fixed value output.
    The TPS maps are TP and RPM to give a fixed value output.
    Timing is static.
    STP is static.
    I am not aware of anything that is variable, or at least not anything that is accessible that can be changed.
    You have to tune the bike one way or another be it by changing the values directly in the ECU or adding a piggyback aftermarket fuel module.
    I do not see where tuning the OEM ECU values directly could cause any issue at all or how adding a aftermarket fuel tuner would do anything different or be better. But I am curious about what was said above and hope to hear more on the subject.

    Hopefully this post gives the OP some of the information he was looking for.

    I will be on the dyno all week during the day. But I will check back in the evening to add more about the ECU maps and answer any questions.

    BCS
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Click image for larger version.

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    Last edited by Bering_C_Sparky; 3 Days Ago at 03:14 AM.

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    I HAVE CLEANED UP THIS THREAD.

    I had to do this in the Covid-19 talk thread not long ago. I've about had it with a certain member's juvenile behavior. YOU KNOW WHO YOU ARE.
    This is your FINAL WARNING. Do it again and you're GONE.

    To everyone else in this forum, I apologize for having to interrupt the conversation this way. No replies, please.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JUDAH-9 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by monroekc17 View Post
    Hey everyone I have a quick question, I have a 2018 B.O.S.S. Edition I recently installed a Freedom Performance Sharp Curve Radius Exhaust as well as a High Flow Dual Intake Air Cleaner Filter Kit. I also have a PCV that is not installed due to mixed reviews, some say I need to install it some say don't install it just flash the ECU and others say do both. My question is with me having those 2 performance parts should I get my bike tuned, also what should I do about the PCV install or not install. Does anyone else have this type of set up if so how much performance difference did you receive and what was your before and after Dyno Results.
    My recommendation is to get rid of the PCV, and go with a Full ECU Flash from BCS. No Fuel Tuner can provide what you can get out of a fully flashed ECU. BCS’s Full ECU Flashes are producing amazing results, according to those who have received his services. Neither the FP Sharp Curve Radius exhaust or the High Flow Dual Air Intakes you have are going to increase your bike’s performance. However, the Full ECU Flash from BCS is an absolute game changer. Most, if not all, have stated it transformed their 9s into something they never thought possible or expected. Very soon, I’m removing my Fuel Tuners, and having the Full ECU Flash performed on all three of my 9s.

    I definitely plan on doing the ECU Flash didnt k ow about BCS, Thank You.

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    Very Active Member JUDAH-9's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by monroekc17 View Post
    I definitely plan on doing the ECU Flash didnt k ow about BCS, Thank You.
    Based on testimonies from many other members of this Forum, and BCSs proven track record of success and expertise, Im confident that youll be extremely pleased with your decision to have BCS perform his Full ECU Flash on your 9. I must admit, when BCS first talked about and eventually started doing ECU Flashes, as he was relative new to this Forum as well, I was skeptical about his abilities and knowledge. However, I must also admit he has more than convinced me that HE IS THE MAN, as it pertains to ECU Flashing. Theres a plethora of members here who can and will validate the expertise of BCS and his ECU Flashing. Not only that, BCS is also a great guy, and very helpful person, as I have learned directly from my own communications with him.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JUDAH-9 View Post
    Based on testimonies from many other members of this Forum, and BCSs proven track record of success and expertise, Im confident that youll be extremely pleased with your decision to have BCS perform his Full ECU Flash on your 9. I must admit, when BCS first talked about and eventually started doing ECU Flashes, as he was relative new to this Forum as well, I was skeptical about his abilities and knowledge. However, I must also admit he has more than convinced me that HE IS THE MAN, as it pertains to ECU Flashing. Theres a plethora of members here who can and will validate the expertise of BCS and his ECU Flashing. Not only that, BCS is also a great guy, and very helpful person, as I have learned directly from my own communications with him.

    i agree great guy with plenty of knowledge!

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