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Revo Cannon Exhaust Chrome issues still current or solved? PowerPro Black on 2015?

5K views 25 replies 5 participants last post by  Mythos 
#1 ·
Hi guys,

I know these topics have been thrashed however i'm after a bit of help with some up to date information if available.

I have searched the boards to find as much info as possible regarding exhaust upgrade and fuel controllers and narrowed it down to V & H Big shots OR Revo Cannons and wanting the Cobra PowerPro Black however my research has also raised some questions.

Still undecided on the Revo 4" slip ons (very little info around on those as only new again last year) so possibly down to the 5" or 6" full system 2-1. Rainey said the 4" are loud and says there are performance gains but with the standard headers not too sure how much gain there would be? Am waiting for another reply from him but in the mean time does anybody have them fitted and can comment?

Not a lot to actually listen to here in NZ so i'm only basing sound decision on what i have heard on Home Theatre with subs, (the Revo's sounded amazing) and all parts i will have to import from overseas as nobody carrying aftermarket stock in NZ that i can find so i really want to get this right first time.

Current performance setup is basically standard with:
X-Tre fitted (gutted that my 2015 now has a max RPM of 7000 due to that being the 4th gear cut off. From what i have read this happened in 2012 109r bikes onwards?)
K and N Filters under standard covers but will get Ducks Mod to increase colder and better air intake if worthwhile?

Looking to do the following asap:

1. Cobra PowerPro Black. (have read this will work on my 2015 and the reason for the cut off year being stated at 2014 from Cobra is that they haven't tested it beyond a 2014 model but apparantly everything is the same and will work on later model bikes? Read on here that somebody checked the microfesh part details and were the same jets etc from 2014-2016. Can anybody verify this and is actually running one on a 2015 or newer?)

2. New exhaust system fitted - I like the look of the Vance and Hines Big shots, but also really like the Cannons. Read on here about issues with Chrome on the Revo product in later years. The main information i read was around 2014. Is anyone aware of an improvement since then and/or is it an issue that needs due consideration before purchase?
3. Ducks mod. (I presume the Ducks mod will need doing to get sufficient air and just fitting the K and N's won't be enough? I did notice a difference after fitting the K and N's so presume the Ducks mod will assist even further once exhaust fitted.

Appreciate any and all info from you guys.

Cheers
 
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#2 · (Edited)
I cannot speak to the Revo exhaust as I have no experience with them......they look and sound awesome from what little I have seen on youtube.

I can talk a bit about a couple of the other points you made though.

As for the X-TRE allowing you to run 4th gear maps in all gears......well unfortunately that does you absolutely no good as far defeating the top end limiter on your bike if you have the European/Australian version.
(If you imported your bike from North America then yes the TRE is getting you around the top end limiter....Theoretically)

The RPM limiter in the stock ECU is actually set at 7200 RPM, but Suzuki restricts the top end another way by closing down the secondary throttle plates in the higher RPM ranges of 5th gear on North American M109R's manufactured between 2008 - 2019. 4th gear STP maps are not restricted and are opened to 100% in the higher RPM ranges......this is why adding the X-TRE will defeat the top end limiter.
(I will get to the 2006 - 2007 and some 2008 North American models below)

Unfortunately for you fellows with European/Australian models Suzuki also limits the 4th gear STP maps.......So no bueno for you guys......you are still limited on the top end (even with a TRE) by the secondarys closing down and sending you into a overly rich AFR which essentially kills your top end HP.

Now for our friends with 2006, 2007 and some 2008 model North American M109R's........you are in the same boat as the European/Australian models.......4th gear STP's are limited so the TRE will not get you around the top end limiter either.

The TRE is going to help you out a bit by getting you around some of the retarded timing in the 1st - 3rd gear maps of all M109R models though......so its not a total waist of money for you.
(However that money would be much better spent by simply getting all this taken of by tuning the ECU itself and not messing around with the aftermarket add on)

So now that we have that bit of information on the table lets talk a little about the Cobra Power Power Pro Auto Tune FI Module.

The Cobra PPB (Power Pro Black) does a great job of keeping your AFR out of lean condition on Acceleration and the few bikes I have ridden with this device on them had very nice and smooth acceleration......not disputing this at all, its true.
However they do such a good job of keeping your AFR out of a lean condition they bring your AFR to right around 11 at WOT (during the time span of a WOT dyno run)

Either of these two factors mentioned above alone do not make top end power.....and actually limit it. So you are not going to be winning any drag races against another bike that is not limited in this way.
(Well I guess I should clarify that a bit, the limited 4th gear STP will not be too much of factor in a 1/8 or 1/4 mile drag race because you are just entering 4th gear when crossing the finish line of a 1/4 mile drag race. But it will begin to limit you once you hit 6630 RPM in 4th gear on the E/A models. The PPB however will go very rich at all WOT no matter what gear, so its not really a great choice if you are racing the bike. I know this first hand because I whip other 9's that are using the PPB with little problem.)

Biggest thing to consider is.....what is it you are really looking for and trying to accomplish.
If you are not planning to race the bike and you are not one who bangs the throttle to stop and rides like your hair is on fire then you will never notice any of this and the TRE, Cobra PPB combination may be just fine for you.

I ran a 2012 M109R with stock ECU and PPB on my dyno just before I went back to sea and it pulled 100 hp
I then flashed the ECU with a stage 1 tune I was developing which eliminates the retarded timing, eliminates the top end limiter and had fully tuned fuel maps and we left the PPB on the bike as well.
Did another run with this new tuned ECU & the PPB set up and it pulled ........100hp :eek:
The PPB still pulled the AFR to 11 and actually pulled the afr into this very rich range even earlier in the run that it did with the stock ECU. (My tuned ECU is set for 12.8 - 12.5 in the WOT range)

So the PPB while it does automatically adjust your AFR to keep the bike from entering a lean condition, it overshoots the sweet spot by quite a bit, so you are not in the optimum AFR range to generate max hp at WOT.
(At least not in the time frame it takes to perform a WOT dyno run)

I did not have time with the bike to really look at the low and mid range cruise AFR with the PPB on the stock ECU but from what little I did see the AFR was higher than I normally shoot for in these areas.

One of these days I will do more extensive testing of the PPB but I have bigger fish to fry before that happens.

As for opening your intakes up, that is a big thumbs up for sure. More and cooler air is much better than less and warmer air.
Intakes that are open on the front and have a ram air effect are even better....you just have to make sure the fuel maps are tuned appropriately to compensate for the added air in either case. This is not efficiently done on a dyno as it is only simulating air flow with fans and not ramming air into the intake at 100+ mph. A combination of dyno and real world, real time road tuning is best.

If you can get me the Model Number off your ECU I would be glad to post the Stock STP maps to show you exactly what I am saying.
I see 8 different model numbers for the 2011 - 2019 European and Australian M109R ECU......but every one of those are top end restricted in the STP 4th and 5th gear maps as I mentioned above.

BCS

Also guys please, don't get hung up on the 100hp number. That is what the bike pulled on my dyno on that day, the number is really irrelevant so please don't bombard me with well mine pulls 105 or 108 hp with the PPB.
I just got this dyno and have not had the opportunity to compare my setting or results with another dyno back to back yet.....I will do this later this fall.
All that is important is that we were comparing apples to apples and doing back to back runs with the same bike, on the same day, on the same dyno, under the same conditions to make a fair comparison after making changes to the bike.

I can say that I pulled my M109R onto the dyno after we pulled the 2012 off, loaded the same ECU tune onto my bike with no PPB and it pulled 8hp more.
Yes it was a different bike so that variable is different but everything else was pretty much the same......there is no doubt in my mind that the PPB taking the bike into an extremely rich condition is what limited the top end hp on the 2012.
He will be removing his PPB shortly and when I get back from sea we will run the bike again to prove the gain in HP. (He did not have time on that day for us to remove the PPB)
 
#26 ·
I cannot speak to the Revo exhaust as I have no experience with them......they look and sound awesome from what little I have seen on youtube.

{Removed no pertinent text]

I ran a 2012 M109R with stock ECU and PPB on my dyno just before I went back to sea and it pulled 100 hp
I then flashed the ECU with a stage 1 tune I was developing which eliminates the retarded timing, eliminates the top end limiter and had fully tuned fuel maps and we left the PPB on the bike as well.
Did another run with this new tuned ECU & the PPB set up and it pulled ........100hp :eek:
The PPB still pulled the AFR to 11 and actually pulled the afr into this very rich range even earlier in the run that it did with the stock ECU. (My tuned ECU is set for 12.8 - 12.5 in the WOT range)

So the PPB while it does automatically adjust your AFR to keep the bike from entering a lean condition, it overshoots the sweet spot by quite a bit, so you are not in the optimum AFR range to generate max hp at WOT.
(At least not in the time frame it takes to perform a WOT dyno run)

I did not have time with the bike to really look at the low and mid range cruise AFR with the PPB on the stock ECU but from what little I did see the AFR was higher than I normally shoot for in these areas.

One of these days I will do more extensive testing of the PPB but I have bigger fish to fry before that happens.

As for opening your intakes up, that is a big thumbs up for sure. More and cooler air is much better than less and warmer air.
Intakes that are open on the front and have a ram air effect are even better....you just have to make sure the fuel maps are tuned appropriately to compensate for the added air in either case. This is not efficiently done on a dyno as it is only simulating air flow with fans and not ramming air into the intake at 100+ mph. A combination of dyno and real world, real time road tuning is best.

If you can get me the Model Number off your ECU I would be glad to post the Stock STP maps to show you exactly what I am saying.
I see 8 different model numbers for the 2011 - 2019 European and Australian M109R ECU......but every one of those are top end restricted in the STP 4th and 5th gear maps as I mentioned above.

BCS

Also guys please, don't get hung up on the 100hp number. That is what the bike pulled on my dyno on that day, the number is really irrelevant so please don't bombard me with well mine pulls 105 or 108 hp with the PPB.
I just got this dyno and have not had the opportunity to compare my setting or results with another dyno back to back yet.....I will do this later this fall.
All that is important is that we were comparing apples to apples and doing back to back runs with the same bike, on the same day, on the same dyno, under the same conditions to make a fair comparison after making changes to the bike.

I can say that I pulled my M109R onto the dyno after we pulled the 2012 off, loaded the same ECU tune onto my bike with no PPB and it pulled 8hp more.
Yes it was a different bike so that variable is different but everything else was pretty much the same......there is no doubt in my mind that the PPB taking the bike into an extremely rich condition is what limited the top end hp on the 2012.
He will be removing his PPB shortly and when I get back from sea we will run the bike again to prove the gain in HP. (He did not have time on that day for us to remove the PPB)
I just posted this on a differnt thread related to the same thing, and thought ti'd be good to post here as well:

This sounds vaguely familiar...LOL I may be wrong here, but are you talking about my bike? If so, I'll add to the conversation. I had the Cobra Fi2000 Fuel Pro (prior to the black edition with the Bluetooth). And rode over to Crystal River to have BCS Flash my ECU and act as a guinea pig on his new dyno. He has the same exhaust I do (though the shorty version) and basically dropped his flash onto my ECU (funny side story here for another time). What we found was only a slight improvement comparatively speaking because the fuel tuner come after the ECU (to put it as technically as I understood it). So the prescription was to remove the fuel tuner, a daunting task for a novice mechanic like myself... though I'm always trying to learn. Today I decided to attempt the job with no safety net, and it actually went fairly well. I was able to strip the bike down, remove the airbox, remove the fuel tuner, change the plugs to the NGK Iridiums and drop in K&N air filters into my stock airboxes. I got everything back together very carefully (except the G@DD@MN front right Cylinder head chrome trim piece, and broke the rear brake master cylinder tab trying to get it on. The damn srcrew holding the bracket in place stripped so I couldn't get that off to try to get the cover back on...any way). After putting it [mostly] all back together I took it for a spin around the neighborhood, everything ran fine. So to stretch her legs a bit, I rode out tonight for "Bike night" which ended up being "Biblical rain" night. I was able to open her up on my way out a little bit, and I definitely noticed an improved smoothness, especially in the decel. I wasn't able to get it WOT for any length of time, so harder to judge top end yet, but certainly a notable improvement. When Charles gets back, I"m going to head over again and see how it does on the dyno with the completed mods. So it is my humble opinon that while the Fuel tuner did do a very good job, it sort of negates some of the power improvements you'd get from the ECU flash. With a really good flash like BCS does, you don't need it. BTW, I now have one for sale - $100 OBO.

Here's a link to the photo's I took of the process:
https://photos.app.goo.gl/RjewSgpCvVhcEhEs6
 
#3 · (Edited)
Hi BCS,
Thanks for the very detailed response. Very interesting as i was wondering about the difference with the EU to US models and wasn't even sure which we had here in NZ. Is there a difference in model number somewhere that verify which model it is or alternatively how do you know if it is EU or US? I know on some of the older sport bikes different countries had power limited models but NZ models were unrestricted but not too sure about now as emmisions requirements etc have changed.

After considering your information i'm thinking of eventually removing the X-Tre and going with a reflash instead. The PowerPro Black apparantly loses memory and starts from scratch every time you ride the bike and therefor requires a few runs up the rev range to start getting the adjustments right. Having the ECU "closer" from the get go by having it reflashed would have to be better than starting from scratch every ride and i could also get the benefit of making these other adjustments at the same time and having full power and RPM range in all gears as well as fixing up gears 1-3 timing.

This of course then raises the question as to whether the PPB is worth having on the bike as a reflash will get me pretty close anyway and maybe not cause those issues at WOT.
I don't want the hassle of playing around with settings as i'm not experienced at all with setting up and tuning so i don't think the PC5 or other units suit me and i won't be drag racing aside from when sitting at lights next to my brother on his Harley. (and that's not much of a race anyway.

I will take it out again tomorrow and pay closer attention to exactly what RPM it cuts off as i only had it up there once after fitting the X-Tre and wasn't expecting it to drop off but i'm sure it was right on 7000
Not wanting the fastest bike around as i have a Concours 14 in the garage as well so for outright speed and sport riding that is a more suitable steed but the 109 is just a really enjoyable bike to ride. I get the same enjoyment cruising on the 109 as i do ripping around at 160Kph + on the Connie. (much better for the license as well)

I guess i'm just getting older.

I think i will be happy with the overall power after fitting the exhaust and ducks mod along with either the X-TRE or reflash and probably the PPB. It would be nice to have those 500 rpm back at the top of the range as that's where some of the best power delivers from looking at various dyno sheets and because its available it makes me want to have it.

I do like the other changes that the X-Tre has accomplished so not completely unhappy with it either so probably a good place for me to start from and after fitting the exhaust and PPB see what it is like.

Out of interest when you did your dyno runs did the Powerpro have a chance to setup properly before doing the actual runs? Have never done any dyno work at all so not familiar with the process but just from reading about the PPB this would be essential in order to have the benefit of the unit from what i understand?

Thanks and again very helpful and look forward to your thoughts.
 
#4 · (Edited)
I am just wagging here because honestly I don't use aftermarket controllers, I have read some of the literature and I see where they say the device does store some information to Cache but what information that is anyone's guess.

But I am pretty sure it is just running a PID Algorithm which is manipulating a process variable to try and hit a fixed set point.

Depending on how you look at it and what you are trying to accomplish with the bike its either genius or somewhat limiting.

If you are just riding like a normal sane person it may be a perfect fit for you, but if you are racing the bike or looking to get max top end hp its not the device I would be looking at.
Now this just my opinion as I know guys who will tell you different, but I believe my own two eyes looking at results I have reached myself more than I do results reached by others, being repeated again by someone else.

To answer your question, yes we did several back to runs with the bike without shutting it down and the result was the same each time.
Were these runs long enough for the PPB to work its magic and set itself straight.....I don't know and I don't really buy into complexly anyway, not to mention the runs we did do were more than long enough to get from start to finish on a 1/4 mile track so that is all the result I need to see to come to the conclusion as to if its the right device for me or not.
Not to mention I rode the bike with the PPB over to where I set up the dyno and I rode it all out WFO on the way over there.
When we arrived the first thing I said to the owner of the bike was "This bike is really fat in the top end".....you could physically feel it was dogging down in the top end at WOT compared to my bike ruining the tuned static maps.

I am not trying to disparage the PPB at all, its a great piece of engineering technology created by someone light years smarter then myself.
I am just talking among friends here having a conversation about what I have seen and experienced with the PPB....which is limited as best.
What is best to put on your bike depends a lot on the individuals who rides it and I don't think there is a one size fits all remedy that will accommodate everyone.

The STP 4th gear maps start to be limiting from 100% open at 6630 RPM and are closed to 36% at 6650 RPM and then continue to close down to 20% by the time you reach 6800 rpm. (See North American & European/Australian 4th gear STP maps below.

Anyway, if you pull your ECU you will see a number on the side of it, with this number I can tell you what market your M109R (VZ1800) was produced for.

BCS
 

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#5 ·
Mate i'm enjoying your wagging as it is giving me an education that i am starting to understand and am very thankful for. That's what makes the boards so helpful, different perspectives and points of view, but most of all actual experience and know how to go with it. :bigthumbsup:

I see exactly where you are coming from with it all and also spotted another thread from last week about ECU flashing which was also helpful. Thinking this is most likely where i will now end up and will remove the X-TRE once got the rest done however am i correct in concluding that i will need a flash that has been based on the exact setup i end up with (namely the ducks covers, K and N's, Revo or V & H exhaust) in order to get the flash correct?

After showing my Wife and another mate of mine the comparisons with the V & H Big shots and the Revo Cannons, (along with a few others) we all agreed on the same and even though it was on utube i do have a pretty good theatre system and the stock bike gave a reference point of sound so it is looking like i will be heading down the track of the Revo's.

It doesn't appear that there are many opinions about the Revo Chrome issue here compared with 2014 where a lot of people had input/warnings about it not being up to scratch. I can only conclude if there was still an issue it would be getting talked about so not too bothered there i think. Even back at the time there were many guys that had no problems and Chrome can be problematic when it comes to heat from what i understand so not put off them at this stage.

My preference is the Revo 4" exhaust in this clip but i still can't clarify if this is the same 4" slip ons that Rainey is doing now or it's a one off as some guys have stated. He said the 4" are very loud and would be great up against my brothers Harley, but it would be nice to have an actual video of the pipes fitted to get an idea from. His exhausts are expensive and i don't mind spending the money if it is what i want, but not into throwing it away without at least having a pretty good idea of how they sound.
Second to that i would go with the Cannon 6" and as that has been around for approx 10 years i'm sure there would be some reflash info available somewhere.

My next step is to clarify about the 4" pipes i think. That was a unanimous pick in this household and if i could get the same as on that link i will be ordering it.

Got a busy day ahead but will try get to the ECU and get the numbers off it as that will no doubt be coming up and necessary as well.

Is it hard to access and do i have to pull it out to get numbers or a relatively easy exercise?

Many thanks again,

Mark.
 
#6 ·
Personally I would stay away from slip on's and go for a complete exhaust......the OEM pipe section has a catalytic converter and you really want to get that part gone if you want to pour on the fuel.

I personally don't have a ECU tune built specifically for any of the Revo pipes and the closest I could hook you up with would one built around the Velocity Pro Race.

More than likely there is a performance shop in NZ that could custom tune your ECU for you though.

I have a video on my company Facebook page (under the video tab on the left side of the main page) that shows how to remove the ECU if you want to watch it to get an idea of how to get the model number off the ECU.

You will have to excuse the video though, I need to remake it using a bike that does not have all the extra wiring and accessories in the way so it is easier to follow.

There is also some info about the ECU tune in the first post on the main page.

https://www.facebook.com/tunemyecu/

BCS
 
#7 ·
Yes i totally agree about preferring the full exhaust to slip ons. I'm pretty sure the 4" system in the previous link is a full system that Rainey built and different to the slip ons that he currently advertises however will wait for his reply and see what he has to say. The 6" system sounds pretty good as well but i do like the look of the twin pipes and that sound is just so deep and smooth on both accel and decel. Shall see what he comes back with.

Thanks fro the link to the video, very straight forward and have taken it off and got a picture attached. Even managed to get it back together and the bike still runs so all good so far. :bigthumbsup:

Thanks for all your assistance on this BCS, is very helpful and interesting. Definitely worth knowing all of this before pulling the trigger on the PPB etc.

Attached is the pic and a pic of my bike.
Look forward to finding out exactly what i have going on.

Cheers mate,
Mark.
 

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#9 ·
But it could be worse, you could have the 32920-48GJ0 ECU which was produced for the European market only and its REALLY Restricted.

The 4th Gear secondarys never open to 100% anywhere in the entire map.

87% @ 4800 RPM (WOT) is the best these poor fellows get and its all down hill from there.

So you can sleep well tonight knowing there still M109R's in the world you can outrun. :joke:

BCS
 

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#10 · (Edited)
Seems I had posted the AFR graph from a few of the dyno runs with the PPB before, I just noticed it archived in my photo attachments on this forum.

Top (in green) is stock ECU with PPB and Bottom (in red) is tuned ECU with PPB.

You can see that the PPB brings the AFR below 11 in all of them at WOT. (Or at least this one did) :p

Oddest part about it is that the tuned ECU is richer (more fuel added) than the stock ECU throughout the TPS Map, yet the PPB adds more fuel than it did to the stock ECU......or possibly it added the same fuel to both and the fact that my tuned ECU maps are richer is why we get that outcome........who knows?........the answers are all inside the little magic black box where we cannot see them.
Tuned ECU WOT AFR is 12.8 - 12.5 without the PPB.

BCS
 

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#11 ·
Hahaha That's really encouraging and thanks for helping me see the upside. :eek: .I do feel for the poor guys that have that model, i guess you are right and at least we're not at the bottom of the list. :D

Okay, well that about sums it up then, definitely in need of a remap to get this beast sorted out to what it should be.

Have just contacted Ducks mod about getting the intakes sorted and hopefully will hear back from Rainey about the pipe in the next couple of days and can get that underway as well.

Have searched out a guy that does remapping here in NZ (Triplezee Cycles) and he's been doing it for 20+ years according to his add. Uses all sorts of mapping software that i have read guys have used on this site as well so seems like he will know what he is doing so that solves that issue as well. Will have a talk to him during the week and see if he is familiar with the 109's and what else needs to be changed (fan temp etc) as well as getting this thing opened up.
Is there a standard list of mods that should be tackled in the remap or would this be general knowledge with the guys that do it?

The X-TRE will be coming out and get the reflash done once got the bits fitted.

Really looking forward to seeing how the 109 performs once it's all done. Should be a very nice difference in overall responsiveness. Stoked!!

You're a legend BCS and really really appreciate your input and time on helping me through this.
A very very big thankyou. :bigthumbsup::bigthumbsup::bigthumbsup:
 
#12 ·
No worries, I am in the Bering Sea 500 miles north of Dutch Harbor right now......bored out of my mind and chomping at the bit to get off this ship and back to work with the bike. :p

These forum conversations are all that keep me sane out here.

Oh and just a bit of FYI.....once you get your exhaust and intakes on you will want to ride the bike even before you get it tuned (Everyone does)......but I would advise you not to do this.

Here is a WOT AFR graph of a M109R with aftermarket pipe and intakes but only running the stock ECU and no FI management.......its not pretty and its very lean.

Get her tuned and then ride all day long. :bigthumbsup:

Good luck with your mods

BCS
 

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#16 ·
No worries, I am in the Bering Sea 500 miles north of Dutch Harbor right now......bored out of my mind and chomping at the bit to get off this ship and back to work with the bike. :p

These forum conversations are all that keep me sane out here.

Oh and just a bit of FYI.....once you get your exhaust and intakes on you will want to ride the bike even before you get it tuned (Everyone does)......but I would advise you not to do this.

Here is a WOT AFR graph of a M109R with aftermarket pipe and intakes but only running the stock ECU and no FI management.......its not pretty and its very lean.

Get her tuned and then ride all day long. :bigthumbsup:

Good luck with your mods

BCS
Hi BCS.

Mate that's a hell of a place to be!! You fishing out there or what?
My Nephew is a commercial diver and out on Tuna tows in Aus at the moment. He spends long stints out on the water as well and gets the same way except his toy is a 550 hp Mitsibushi Evo 7. (it actually is 550HP, quicker than my concours 14 (and most other bikes) and an absolute rocket to drive. Road legal but full road cage etc and setup for the track.)

Not that i completely understand that chart but i can see that it appears to be a loong way away from where it should be. I think i will pay attention to you on that one. As tempting as it would be to go riding before getting the reflash.. it would really suck to just get the mods done and blow the bike up before even getting it finished. :cus: I would end up like this guy. (and that other guy you pissed off today on FB hahaha. )

Cheers. :bigthumbsup:
 
#14 ·
what about the "accelerometer chip" in the ppb, and "continuously variable tuning" sounds like its got simple pulse extender circuitry to me, like the diesel tuning box,s have,
prolly just monitors the injector duration and adds 10%, hence the even richer afr,s on the modded ecu
10.5 : 1 is proper borewash territory, no wonder some of you guys have oil consumption issues, that nikasil coating on the jugs is only about 4 thou thickness
and there is probably only about 3hp difference in the afr,s of 13-14-15-16 :1 above and below those is drops bigtime, the hp gains are in the spark timing and 2nd throttles, and cam timings imo
 
#15 ·
Hi Frankj
Don't completely understand what you're getting at with the "accelerometer chip" but taking a stab at it are you meaning that the PPB would be a good thing as it is monitoring the acceleration and adjusting in a good way under those conditions (even though it is only under acceleration)?

BUT... The main horsepower gains are still in the timing, secondary throttles and cams meaning that a "Reflash" of the ECU to adjust these and open up the secondary throttles and AFR more in line with what the bike should be doing is a good idea but then possibly adding the PPB as well (after a reflash) to get the benefit of what the PPB actually does do?

I think BCS had done this and found that overall performance after a reflash (without the PPB) provided a better overall response than with the PPB.
(feel to correct me if i've got this totally wrong as i'm new to the whole AFR side of things so this is a hell of a learning curve for me and trying to wrap my head around it all as quick as poss 8) )


Cheers
 
#17 ·
Hi Frankj
Don't completely understand what you're getting at with the "accelerometer chip" but taking a stab at it are you meaning that the PPB would be a good thing as it is monitoring the acceleration and adjusting in a good way under those conditions (even though it is only under acceleration)?

BUT... The main horsepower gains are still in the timing, secondary throttles and cams meaning that a "Reflash" of the ECU to adjust these and open up the secondary throttles and AFR more in line with what the bike should be doing is a good idea but then possibly adding the PPB as well (after a reflash) to get the benefit of what the PPB actually does do?

I think BCS had done this and found that overall performance after a reflash (without the PPB) provided a better overall response than with the PPB.
(feel to correct me if i've got this totally wrong as i'm new to the whole AFR side of things so this is a hell of a learning curve for me and trying to wrap my head around it all as quick as poss 8) )

Cheers
just questioning the claims the the ppb has got those nz, and i,m a firm believer that afr,s should be kept close to lambda1 (14.7 : 1) which is why my aftermarket exhaust runs the factory fitted o2 sensors, so that the engine is running at exactly lambda 1 (closed loop) at all times except from full throttle
my 2012 toyota runs fulltime closed loop, even at full throttle and on coldstart, controlled by a wideband o2 sensor precat, and a narrowband o2 sensor postcat, as do most vehicles nowadays, it was a major step forward in fuel management
and yes a reflash is preferable
 
#21 ·
Cheers Kratos.

That's interesting. I've heard all the good things about the Cannon pipes (lowest deepest sound and best sounding pipe on the 9 etc) but droning is a very relevant consideration.
Out of interest did you have the 5" or 6" cannon and any other bits like aftermarket intakes and/or ECU flash or Power commander or Cobra fitted?
Just wondering if the droning is a cannon characteristic at certain lower revs or differs with different setups?

It's all very interesting and quite a learning curve. Unfortunately i do wear a full face helmet and i have only just started wearing ear plugs recently. I found them fantastic but moreso to eliminate air noise than anything else. Can still hear the Sena clear as day on a moderate volume.

Definitely would be interested in hearing anymore information about the droning. That could make a really good road trip virtually unbearable if it was bad enough.

Seen quite a few clips on them at idle and getting a few revs on them but nothing with a constant RPM in order to tell the story so appreciate the heads up.

It does appear that the best overall improvement will be to go with the ECU Reflash and Dyno setup at the same time and at this stage that's where i'm heading. Its the same price as the Cobra PPB (and close to the PC5) but can achieve virtually everything at once. Obviously i would need a redo if i ever change out any parts but i don't plan on doing that and if i get to the stage of wanting a change it will probably be time for a new bike and maybe they will have ABS by then. :bigthumbsup:

Regarding the 02 sensors, Raineys exhaust comes with the 02 Sensor eliminators and exhaust servo eliminator. The reason for the O2 Eliminators he says is that the stock ECU will only work at +-8% additional fuel and with aftermarket exhaust and intake it will require more than this to run right. I don't know if he is accounting for a reflash of the ECU though which i presume would take this into consideration and already be mapped accordingly so the +-8% would be possibly just accounting for different ambient conditions which i presume would be beneficial?
 
#22 · (Edited)
Cheers Kratos.

That's interesting. I've heard all the good things about the Cannon pipes (lowest deepest sound and best sounding pipe on the 9 etc) but droning is a very relevant consideration.
Out of interest did you have the 5" or 6" cannon and any other bits like aftermarket intakes and/or ECU flash or Power commander or Cobra fitted?
Just wondering if the droning is a cannon characteristic at certain lower revs or differs with different setups?

It's all very interesting and quite a learning curve. Unfortunately i do wear a full face helmet and i have only just started wearing ear plugs recently. I found them fantastic but moreso to eliminate air noise than anything else. Can still hear the Sena clear as day on a moderate volume.

Definitely would be interested in hearing anymore information about the droning. That could make a really good road trip virtually unbearable if it was bad enough.

Seen quite a few clips on them at idle and getting a few revs on them but nothing with a constant RPM in order to tell the story so appreciate the heads up.

It does appear that the best overall improvement will be to go with the ECU Reflash and Dyno setup at the same time and at this stage that's where i'm heading. Its the same price as the Cobra PPB (and close to the PC5) but can achieve virtually everything at once. Obviously i would need a redo if i ever change out any parts but i don't plan on doing that and if i get to the stage of wanting a change it will probably be time for a new bike and maybe they will have ABS by then. :bigthumbsup:

Regarding the 02 sensors, Raineys exhaust comes with the 02 Sensor eliminators and exhaust servo eliminator. The reason for the O2 Eliminators he says is that the stock ECU will only work at +-8% additional fuel and with aftermarket exhaust and intake it will require more than this to run right. I don't know if he is accounting for a reflash of the ECU though which i presume would take this into consideration and already be mapped accordingly so the +-8% would be possibly just accounting for different ambient conditions which i presume would be beneficial?
Hey Cruisin,

On that bike I had the 6" Cannon, Thunder MFG Tornado intakes and the previous model PowerPro (the one with the adjustable dial inside for cruise fuel) but then had the ECU flashed in the end. I don't think any of the other parts have much effect on the exhaust drone. Having a 3" core in the muffler is where you get that deep tone, and unfortunately, those deeper/lower frequencies are what resonate inside the helmet. I actually ended up getting rid of the muffler and purchased one from Max Torque Cans. They were about the only sportbike muffler manufacturer that were able to make a muffler with a 3" core. I had a mid-pipe made and connected it to the Revo header, sounded identical to the 6" cannon, but the muffler was no where near as large and much lighter. I had that pipe a little further back and slightly angled up, which helped get the exhaust sound further behind me, but would still drone.

Yea, I would assume it would take more than +/- 8% fuel to accommodate an aftermarket exhaust. The ECU flash would account for that and actually disable the O2 sensor so you don't get an FI code when you unplug it. Most of the changes for ambient conditions would be taken care of by the sensors on the intake side I believe.

Will be interesting to see what they do with the 9 in the coming years, I was hoping for ABS too.
 
#23 ·
Hi again Kratos,

Very interesting about the 6" cannon and makes sense with the 3" pipe as i have 3" pipes as part of the Walkinshaw package on my Holden S/W. Not that it bothers me too much as i'm in the front but anybody sitting in the back gets quite a bit of that type of droning and hard for them to hear any of the conversation taking place in the front seat.
I love the deep rumble of the V8 through the big pipes so although have only heard utube clips through the home theatre i think im going to love the 6" Cannon as well sooo...
I've decided to go ahead and have ordered it over the weekend. You definitely got me thinking about the potential annoyance of the droning and ive spent quite a few hours over the last few days doing more research and listening but they are the only pipes i really really like so decided to take an educated and informed punt on them. I figured that if i bought any others i would always be wondering what the Cannon would have been like and there is only ever going to be one way to find out as i don't think anyone else in NZ has them so decision made. 8)

Worst case if i need to keep wearing ear plugs then so be it. I'm getting used to the plugs and with the type of riding i do here it is seldom that we are cruising at low RPM speed for any length of time so hoping that it won't be too much of an issue for me but i DO appreciate the heads up as not a lot of feedback came through about the Revo pipes and most information available was from a few years back.

Although a lot of guys don't appreciate the size of the Revo pipes, they remind me of my 92 GSXR 1100 with big 4-2 Chromed cans. Don't know what size they were exactly but they must have been 5 or 6" cans. Loved the sound of that bike and was great fun 25 years ago when the cops had a bit more leniency (and even a sense of humour). Hopefully this one doesn't draw too much attention from the boys in blue when it's done. :cop: :bigthumbsup:

Have also sent my stock covers off for Ducks Mod and talked to a local guy about getting on the Dyno and getting the Reflash completed. Definitely going this way over an auto tuner. Seems to be pretty universal from guys that have gone this way that it is the best overall so the plan is locked in, the relevant parts have been ordered and now it's just a patient wait for everything to turn up so i can put it all together.

Looking forward to hearing it live and really looking forward to getting out on the road. :drool:

Cheers.
 
#25 ·
Hi Kratos,

Yeah mate i will definitely be putting the threadlock on the bolts. Have heard a few guys say they nearly lost the end cap due to not putting it on.

Regarding the wait...., yep it could take a while as shipping to NZ can take up to 3 weeks so hopefully there are no holdups in customs when it arrives in the country but i'm sure it will be worth the wait. :)

Cheers mate.
 
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