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    Very Active Member Bering_C_Sparky's Avatar
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    Default ECU Talk

    Well the forum is a bit slow today so just thought I would post this up and share something I found interesting about our ECU Maps that I discovered the other day.

    Everything I say about the TRE in this post is simply facts.....I am not advising anyone to run out and buy a TRE and not trying to talk you out of buying one either, I am just talking ......but you can get your ECU flashed to take care of all of this without any aftermarket add on devices.

    In a previous thread we have discussed that a TRE will trick your bike into running 4th gear maps all the time. (Regardless of what gear you are actually in)

    The TRE is primarily used to correct the retarded timing that is programmed into 1st, 2nd & 3rd gear from the factory........Install a TRE and you will run 4th gear maps all the time, so the ECU is fooled into never executing the retarded timing maps in the lower gears.

    Now another added benefit you get from a TRE is that it will get you around the top end limiter on the Secondary Throttle Plate Maps.......IF you are one of the fortunate ones that are running a ECU model that will allow this.

    If you have a 2006, 2007 or some 2008 models made for North America.......sorry you are out of luck here......the way the STP bin file is constructed your 4th and 5th gear maps are the same so the limiter will be active when your are in 4th gear.....so you cannot get around this limiter using a TRE, although you do still get the benefit of its intended use as a Timing Retard Eliminator.

    If you have (some)2008 model ECU and all 2009 - 2019 M109R ECU models made for North American.....well you are lucky, the TRE will get you around this top end limiter because in your ECU STP maps 4th gear is not limited, so the TRE tricking your bike into thinking its in 4th gear all the time gets you around the timing retard and the STP limiter.

    We have discussed all this in the past, but just wanted to refresh it here for any new comers who may not have heard of this before.

    Now for the new addition to this story we will include our friends from across the pond(s).

    I never had anyone from overseas send me their ECU to flash before, but the other day I flashed the very first one I ever had to send across the pond. One of our members from the Netherlands had sent his ECU to me to be flash.

    Once I got in and started looking at the European/Australian maps I found that they have the STP top end limited in 4th gear for every year from 2006 - 2019.

    So you fella's on the other side of the ponds who are running a TRE are still limited on the top end by the STP maps and cannot get around it via the use of a TRE.

    Tuning the ECU directly is the only way you will be able to get around this limiter. (or yank out the secondarys)

    Not that this makes a big hill of beans unless you are like me and like to run the bike all out WFO.......but I know of at least one on here who is on the other side and likes to lay down some rubber and twist the throttle. (I am sure there are others also)

    Again I am not pushing the TRE here, I believe you are leaps and bound and money ahead to just tune the ECU directly.......I posted this info strictly as FYI

    Anyway, just thought I would throw that tidbit of information out there, as I had never seen anyone mention this before......a little light reading for ya, on a slow day.

    Below you can see the 4th gear STP maps for a North American 2011 - 2019 M109R and the same map for a European/Australian 2011 - 2019 M109R

    BCS
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    Last edited by Bering_C_Sparky; 02-04-2019 at 07:31 PM.

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    Very Active Member Bering_C_Sparky's Avatar
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    If you notice the European/Australian STP 4th gear map is also much more limited in the lower RPM range compared to its North American counterpart.

    This is likely due to stricter emissions and noise regulations imposed in these regions.

    BCS
    Last edited by Bering_C_Sparky; 02-04-2019 at 09:51 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bering_C_Sparky View Post
    If you notice the European/Australian STP 4th gear map is also much more limited in the lower RPM range compared to its North American counterpart.

    This is likely due to stricter emissions and noise regulations imposed in these regions.

    BCS
    interesting bcs i personally think that you lose bottom-end grunt with the secondary throttles fully open at lower rpm. (or constantly open)
    one function of those throttles is to speed up airflow at low rpm to counter reversion when the inlet valve is still open after bottom dead centre, in the same way that a variable length inlet manifold works.
    i measured the duration of our cams and they are pretty wild (260 deg iirc) so without those secondary throttles its like a tuned engine that you have to wait for the cams to "kick in"
    or the same as if you fit wilder cams and you find that the powerband is higher up the rpm and you have to rev it all the time

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    Very Active Member cbxer55's Avatar
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    I read it all, doesn't sound like he's advocating removing the secomdary throttle plates. Apparently they are used to limit top speed, and he's talking that flashing the PCU (ECM) will prevent them from doing that. In any event I'm not concerned at all about the top end limiter. Had the bike 13 years, fastest I've been is 135 or so. Once. Not again. My B-King, that's an entirely7 different story. Had it to a buck fifty a few times. ;-)
    Last edited by cbxer55; 02-05-2019 at 12:08 AM.
    SILVER 2006 M109R.
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    I have a '14 and physically removed the STP's. Being that I don't have a tune or a flash the bike runs like sh"t. I have not been riding because it's actually a safety hazard to ride it. Let me explain...When I open it up (WOT) the RPM's go all the way to almost 8k, the bike moves, but it acts like a very bad turbo lag. It'll spool up and then BOOM! it takes off like a freaking rocket. I feel unsafe riding like this, because I have had more than a few situations where I needed to accelerate fast and could not because of the lag. Today I took it all apart again and found the rear park plug was not seated all the way (actually loose). I was going to put the STP's back in, but figured the lag came from the loose plug. Well, I was wrong. It is still doing it. I am putting the STP's back in tomorrow. BTW, I checked all connections and everything is as it should. My best guess is that not having a tune it causing the bike to bog down. BUT, I do have a TRE. What is making me scratch my head is, if the TRE is running 4th gear map and the STP's are open in that map, removing the STP's should not have that effect because they would be open regardless....? IDK, I guess I'll find out. On the bright side, I have removed and installed the airbox so many times, I can do it in about 15 minutes now. lol

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    Very Active Member Bering_C_Sparky's Avatar
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    On the North American 4th & 5th gear stock maps the secondarys have always been fully open in the higher throttle ranges through the entire rpm range from 2006 - 2019 model M109R.

    On the Europe/Australia 4th & 5th gear stock maps the secondarys are the same as the North American for the 1st generation ECU's 2006 - 2008, but once you get to the 2nd generation 2009 - 2010 & 3rd generation 2011 - 2013 the Europe/Australia STP maps look like what I posted above with the secondarys closed down quite a bit in the higher TP positions and only fully open between 5200 RPM to around 6630 RPM.

    The North American stock secondary maps have all remained 100% open in 4th and 5th gear TP 28% & >.......with the exception for top end limiter in 4th & 5th gear for 1st gen (2006, 2007 and some 2008 models) and top end limiter in 5th gear only for 2009 - 2019 North American models.

    I am not saying you are wrong for sure, you sound to be a very knowledgeable fellow and I would love to hang out with you, pick your brain and learn a few new tricks.
    But Europe has been implementing much higher emission and noise restrictions standards than North American, so that STP trend I am seeing in these maps would lead me to believe they have more to do with meeting those tougher environmental standards than they would for improving torque. After all if was done as an improvement to the bike and not as a restriction I would think the Japanese would be offering that feature to North America as well.

    I could be dead wrong on that but it is almost a mute issue anyway, by the time you get to 30% throttle position in 4th gear you are well into the RPM range where the secondarys are starting to open up on the Euro STP maps. (See data screen shot below)
    What you said is food for though though and if I get time later this summer when the bike goes back up on the dyno, we can experiment with that theory to see if there is better torque number running the Euro maps compared to the North American maps.

    My kind of fun, science with motorcycles, I will have to get get a white leather lab coat.

    The original message I was trying to convey is that the secondarys closing back down from 6630 RPM & > in 4th gear that is really restricting the top end of the bike and that any of you fellows who had been following along with this forum all these years thinking the TRE was getting you around this top end limiter.......well its not.....sorry to be the bearer of bad news. Bright side is that it is probably still fixing up your retarded timing situation if you happen to be running one. (Which is its intended purpose anyway)

    But hold on that's not the end of the story.... when you look at the Euro 5th gear stock STP maps they get even uglier and move this restriction over 1000 RPM lower and making the secondarys start to shut down at 5505 RPM and by 5522 RPM they are slammed down to 36% and headed south......Yikes
    (See below)

    BCS
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    Last edited by Bering_C_Sparky; 02-05-2019 at 04:23 AM.

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    Very Active Member Bering_C_Sparky's Avatar
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    Slight revision to a comment I made above.....

    In the 1st gen North American 4th gear STP maps, the secondarys are fully opened at the 65% TP position in all RPM ranges, with the exception of the top end limiter in 4th and 5th gear.

    Once we get to the Gen 2 and above STP maps they are opened fully at 28% TP and above in all RPM ranges with the exception of the 5th gear top end limiter.

    I apologize for missing this slight difference in the first gen series.....but its getting late and I did not feel like going back and rewording the original post.

    Hopefully posting this correction does not confuse things very much.....but I know there are others out there with this same information and I wanted to state this correction before I got called out on it.

    BCS

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    Very Active Member Bering_C_Sparky's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BOSS_man View Post
    I have a '14 and physically removed the STP's. Being that I don't have a tune or a flash the bike runs like sh"t. I have not been riding because it's actually a safety hazard to ride it. Let me explain...When I open it up (WOT) the RPM's go all the way to almost 8k, the bike moves, but it acts like a very bad turbo lag. It'll spool up and then BOOM! it takes off like a freaking rocket. I feel unsafe riding like this, because I have had more than a few situations where I needed to accelerate fast and could not because of the lag. Today I took it all apart again and found the rear park plug was not seated all the way (actually loose). I was going to put the STP's back in, but figured the lag came from the loose plug. Well, I was wrong. It is still doing it. I am putting the STP's back in tomorrow. BTW, I checked all connections and everything is as it should. My best guess is that not having a tune it causing the bike to bog down. BUT, I do have a TRE. What is making me scratch my head is, if the TRE is running 4th gear map and the STP's are open in that map, removing the STP's should not have that effect because they would be open regardless....? IDK, I guess I'll find out. On the bright side, I have removed and installed the airbox so many times, I can do it in about 15 minutes now. lol
    4th gear STP is not open to 100% in the stock 2014 maps until you reach 28% TP. (See below)

    I know a few guys who have removed their secondarys but have not heard of the problem you are experiencing.

    What you are saying sounds very odd, and my mind starts thinking clutch issue.....but that is just a thought and my be way off base.
    You should not even be able to get your bike over 7200 RPM without hitting he limiter if you are running stock ECU maps. (I theory that is....strange **** happens sometime in reality)

    I have not physically removed my secondarys but I have experimented with keeping them held open via the ECU output in all TP and RPM ranges for every gear......and did not have any trouble at all when I did this.
    (You do have to make up some fuel hear and there when you do this though to keep your AFR correct)

    I think you have something else going on entirely ......I do not think you will fix this problem by putting the secondarys back in but it will be interesting to see if you get a different outcome when you reinstall them.

    BCS
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    Last edited by Bering_C_Sparky; 02-05-2019 at 03:27 AM.

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    I agree 100%. I honestly don't think it's the STP removal causing the problem. My first thought was the clutch also, but it ran perfect as I rode it to my other house to remove the STP's. Once removed, I started the bike and went for a test drive and it was doing as described in my previous post. It's probably something very simple that I'm overlooking. Regardless, I'll have an answer later today once I put the STP's back in. I'm trying to eliminate that possibility before I get into anything else.

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    Very Active Member Bering_C_Sparky's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cbxer55 View Post
    Had the bike 13 years, fastest I've been is 135 or so.
    That is probably about as fast your 2006 will go since 4th & 5th gear STP map hits a wall at around 5850 RPM.

    Being able to get the most out of 4th gear is huge from a speed standpoint if you are racing anything greater than 1/4.
    (On the 1/4 mile track you are shifting to 4th right about the time you have finished the race on the M109R)

    I know my 2007 took a lot of road to achieve a speed of 135 mph.....after I worked up the ECU a bit it would get to to 135 really quick, but still topped out at about 142 mph.

    My 2008 with the latest tune I am running on it gets in the high triple digits damn fast up to about 140 mph and then it takes a moment and a little black top to pin the speedo.....but I have manged to get Big Bird to roll the needle all the way to 150 on the road......Dyno runs come back at over 160, but that is just not realistic on the black top with a 9 as far I have seen.....its screening WFO at 150 mph with Scotty yelling "I am givin her all she's got Captain"

    Maybe with some engine mods, turbo or NOS you might get more than that, but with just an exhaust, intake and tune around 150 is pretty much all you can expect to get on the actual black top from what I have experienced.
    I don't know this for sure but I imagine you have the gear ratio of the 9 about spooled out at that point.

    You want to be on a tight 9 doing that kind of speed also, I have rode a couple that at 135 mph I was thinking the front end might come apart....so I slowed my happy a$$ down and returned the bike back to the rightful owner.
    My Big Bird was like that when I got it also, felt like the front end was going to self destruct. I took the front wheel off and found one of the forks was busted and the weight of the bike was the only thing holding the upper and lower together on the left fork. (See picture below) I put the forks with 1.1 kg springs off my 2007 on her and she rides like dream now.

    Also keep in mind that to get to these speeds quickly you have to make the most out of every gear....if you are just puttering along in 5th gear and nail the throttle, she will still get up there but not hair on fire fast and you will probably run out of road before she pegs out doing it that way.

    (Not directing these statements at you cbxer......just throwing it out there as realistic expectations for anyone who may be reading this but not savvy to the 9 or that kind of speed)

    BCS
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    fascinating info guys i just think that suzuki utilised the secondaries to improve the power delivery as well as using it as a soft rev limiter, and holding them open in all gears may result in a slower 1/4 mile.
    i have tinkered with engines that felt quicker because i created a noticeable power surge at higher rpm, but the timing sheet was actually slower !
    a 1 second hesitation in each gear adds up, even tho the surge in power gets the adrenalin flowing
    a peak hp dyno printout is one thing, but the area (sq mm) below the hp curve is all important eh

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    1/4 mile is pretty much just 1st, 2nd & 3rd gear.

    Here are the STP stock maps for the lasted Euro bin files for those gears......The North American maps look very similar for these gears so the big difference between Euro & NA is in the 4th & 5th gear STP stock maps.

    BCS
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    yes my thoughts were in terms of anyone editing the secondary maps for possible gains bcs, or anyone removing the throttleplates,
    thats why my custom inlets were purposely long and thin, but that setup gave an FI light when fitted so need more work/testing

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    Awesome thread with lots of great info. Thanks everyone.

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    Default Riding in the IAP Range

    Well we had a little conversation going yesterday. (Or I guess just me mostly running off at the mouth)

    Lets add another little tidbit of ECU trivia today and see if we can stimulate some conversation.


    Who was aware that when cruising at 75 mph in 5th gear @ around 3300 RPM +/- ........ you are actually hovering just under the 10% throttle position and your ECU is outputting your injector pulse width values from the IAP Fuel Maps?

    Almost hard to believe that at that speed you are at such a small throttle position and utilizing the IAP maps to fuel the injectors!
    If you ride like a sane person, are not always into the throttle hard and just like to cruise along.........probably 75% or greater of your riding time you will be working from your IAP maps instead of your TPS maps.

    Of course I myself do not know of anyone who rides a 9 in this fashion. I know 100% for sure that I do not......TPS Fuel maps for me.

    But it is amazing how much time is spent in the low throttle range running off the IAP maps, you would never think that is the case until you have seen it in real time with your own eyes.

    Note: Observations above came from data while riding my bike, results may vary a bit for each bike and set up......but are probably pretty close from bike to bike.

    BCS
    Last edited by Bering_C_Sparky; 02-05-2019 at 05:16 PM.

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    thats assuming you run without o2 sensors :) mine runs closed loop for most of its life, as soon as the o2 sensors are up to temperature and outputting a voltage,
    the surging that many members complain of is probably where the ecu cant decide whether to run the injectors from the IAP sensor or the TPS sensor eh

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    Quote Originally Posted by frankj View Post
    thats assuming you run without o2 sensors :) mine runs closed loop for most of its life, as soon as the o2 sensors are up to temperature and outputting a voltage,
    the surging that many members complain of is probably where the ecu cant decide whether to run the injectors from the IAP sensor or the TPS sensor eh

    We Yanks don't have narrow band O2 sensors on our 9's so any results you see me posting are from a M109R who's ECU is running static map only.

    The Wide Band O2 sensors installed on my bike are used only for my data collection purposes and do not influence the ECU in any way......So you Imperial types across the pond who run narrow band O2 sensors could possibly see a slightly different result I suppose.....but the theory behind it all still should be pretty much the same.

    I have not done any testing on a bike with narrow band O2 running close loop, so I cant speak of that very much.

    But from looking at the Euro bin file map sets, I cant see why that at the same RPM and the same throttle position you would not be somewhere "Close" to same range as the rest of us. 10% and < (give or take) you should still be running IAP maps.....No?

    As you cross over from the 9.6% to the 14 % tps range is the area where you mention this surging.....and I can see where running a closed PI or PID loop could help smooth this transition out some, simply because it will not allow your AFR to climb or fall beyond a fixed set of values, where we in NA have to get our AFR static maps set as close to gnats A$$ as possible up front.
    The AFR can get pretty wacky in this transition zone and takes some messing with to get it soothed out for those of us running static maps with no PID.

    Your narrow band sensors are just going to +/- your injector pulse width to try and keep you lined up with your AFR set point if I understand how they work correctly. So not sure how that is really changing the TP, RPM relationship for your TPS maps or your TP, IP/AP relationship for IAP maps?



    BCS
    Last edited by Bering_C_Sparky; 02-05-2019 at 07:03 PM.

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    yes our closed loop systems completely over-ride the IAP and TPS maps and continuously add and subtract injector quantities 2 x a sec, so when the o2 sensor reads lean (.3v) it increases, till it reads rich (.7v) then reduces.
    and that keeps the afr at 14.7 + or - a couple of points.
    then when you accelerate hard the ecu reverts to the embedded fuel map and you will see the o2 sensor hold at .9v (ie , off the scale rich), and when you lift the injectors cut and the o2 sensor reads 0v (off the scale lean)
    here is a vid of my voltmeter in a nissan car, with it bouncing at about .5v at cruise, then at the end i boot it and it reads .9v, then i lift , 0v
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N0sfY4dVcqM
    i rigged up a meter on the bike and it did the same, but it took a lot of throttle to get it to kick out of closed loop.
    i think on most ecu,s a rate of change threshold has to be reached for it to do that, and a mph threshold too (so that it it goes open loop sooner in the lower gears)

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    i,ve had a few cars dyno,d and this m109r afr trace was pretty common, where the ecu tries to keep it in closed loop but then drops out and reverts to the enriched fuel map
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    Would it be possible for those of us that have an 06-08 to get a used ECU from another year model and be able to install and use to be able to take advantage of a TRE or is there to much of a difference between the first few years and the rest to make it not possible?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Truffle View Post
    Would it be possible for those of us that have an 06-08 to get a used ECU from another year model and be able to install and use to be able to take advantage of a TRE or is there to much of a difference between the first few years and the rest to make it not possible?
    Or maybe an easier suggestion would be to connect with BCS on here and he will tune the ECU to clean all that up and more.
    You won't need the TRE or a newer model ECU...you can get your current ECU tuned to eliminate all those issues.
    2008 M109R2 Black - Flat black rims, Smoked turn signals, K&N Replacement filters, 2006 Exhaust Debaffled, & HealTech GiPro A-TRE G2.

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    Very Active Member Bering_C_Sparky's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Truffle View Post
    Would it be possible for those of us that have an 06-08 to get a used ECU from another year model and be able to install and use to be able to take advantage of a TRE or is there to much of a difference between the first few years and the rest to make it not possible?
    I can say that I have installed and ran every model M109R ECU I have ever gotten my hands on into my 2007 & 2008 and they all functioned just fine.

    I would say that what you are asking is very plausible......but I have never done any testing to actually prove one way or the other. (Actually I have never done any testing to prove if the TRE is doing what it says it is either....just taking it at face value that it works as advertised)

    Sasnuke is right though, why would you want to purchase another ECU and purchase a TRE when you can just have ALL the maps in your existing ECU worked up with a complete tune and be done with it.

    This would be much less expensive and make better sense than installing a newer stock ECU and adding a TRE. (IMHO)

    BCS
    Last edited by Bering_C_Sparky; 02-06-2019 at 10:51 PM.

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    BCS, don't know if this is the right place to post this but forgive the new guy lol. After 10+ yrs of wanting a 9 I finally picked one up. She's a 2019, just over 100 miles on the clock as of today. It's actually back at the dealer right now due to someone dropping a piece of the crate on my headlight during shipping n giving it a nice gash. Dealers replacing the headlight plastics.

    I've noticed a hickup when blipping the throttle from idle so I mentioned this to the service guys n theyre looking into it, hopefully as we speak. But from reading all your info on how our ECUs r factory tuned, Im guessing they're gonna come up with nothing. Is this a common thing?

    First tank of gas (from dealer)was pretty bad. It actually shut off once or twice at a light when I blipped the throttle before starting to release the clutch. Second tank that I filled with Mobil 93 was much better. But still coughed a few times if I let it get down to idle before blipping into gear.

    I'm definitely eventually gonna send you my ECU, I have sharp curves coming from JC but am still undecided on intake. If you flash my ECU with the pipes but stock intake, would I have to reflash once I do intake?

    Sorry for the rambling lol

    Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

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