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Thread: Air box

  1. #1
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    Default Air box

    Any thoughts on deleting the air box and using the salad bowls (with K&N) or spikes to pull "cold" air straight into the TB? My best guess it that HP will increase, but TQ will decrease? I already read the thread on here about the airbox delete, I'm asking for personal experiences or data.

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    Very Active Member cbxer55's Avatar
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    Bering C Sparky told me that he had seen a M109R with the filters under the tank attached directly to the throttle bodies, on a dyno. Said that it was the most powerful of all the M109R's dynoed that day. But you have to have something to shove some cold air under the tank. It's nothing but hot air up there, and hot air is not conducive to making power. I'm not sure how you could use the salad bowls to shove air up there. Usually a tube is mounted to direct cold air under the tank.
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    Very Active Member Bering_C_Sparky's Avatar
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    I have 2 friends who have this mod.

    Or i guess i should say "had" this mod, one has since sold his bike and the other just put his bike up for sale today.

    Biggest thing is you need someplace to mount all the sensors and what-not that are on the air box.

    You can see in the pictures below my friend was making a metal plate to accommodate this.

    BCS

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bering_C_Sparky View Post
    I have 2 friends who have this mod.

    Or i guess i should say "had" this mod, one has since sold his bike and the other just put his bike up for sale today.

    Biggest thing is you need someplace to mount all the sensors and what-not that are on the air box.

    You can see in the pictures below my friend was making a metal plate to accommodate this.

    BCS
    Are those completed? You think he might have one laying around he can sell to me? I am much more concerned about performance. Do you have a flash for this mod, or do you recommend a custom full tune (per cylinder and per gear/RPM)? A custom tune runs anywhere from $500-$700 here in Jacksonville and it takes a day or two to complete.
    Last edited by BOSS_man; 01-18-2019 at 11:51 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by cbxer55 View Post
    I'm not sure how you could use the salad bowls to shove air up there. Usually a tube is mounted to direct cold air under the tank.
    I haven't played with it yet, but I think getting a flex hose either affixed to the stock one or getting one custom made from the filter to the throttle body. I have 2 places within 15 minutes from me that make custom hoses for boats, trucks, etc. As long as I can get the air to flow free, it shouldn't be a problem...we'll see

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    If you're putting the filters directly onto the throttle bodies, it really needs to be some sort of ram air to get the air up under the tank. I have pictures of one bike that has a ram air using tubes. Used to be a kit, I heard. I thought about doing it, but didn't want to mess with the sensors. It's also rumored that those filters right on the throttle bodies, are LOUD! VERY LOUD. I mean, my LA Choppers Big Air xXx are louder than my exhaust. So I can't imagine how loud LOUD is!
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    Quote Originally Posted by cbxer55 View Post
    If you're putting the filters directly onto the throttle bodies, it really needs to be some sort of ram air to get the air up under the tank. I have pictures of one bike that has a ram air using tubes. Used to be a kit, I heard. I thought about doing it, but didn't want to mess with the sensors. It's also rumored that those filters right on the throttle bodies, are LOUD! VERY LOUD. I mean, my LA Choppers Big Air xXx are louder than my exhaust. So I can't imagine how loud LOUD is!
    Don't the throttle bodies suck air? I don't understand why I would need some sort of ram air. Please explain.

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    i need to resume my airbox delete too, if i ever finish my seat cowl and exhaust mods :)
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    Quote Originally Posted by BOSS_man View Post
    Don't the throttle bodies suck air? I don't understand why I would need some sort of ram air. Please explain.
    The engine will only suck in air during the intake cycle of the combustion process.
    So as long as the intake cycle lasts, the engine will draw in whatever air is available.

    With a ram air system, the air intake is usually focused in the direction the bike travels to allow a larger volume of air to be directed towards the throttle body.
    When the engine is on it's intake stroke, as it sucks in the available air, the ram system is allowing the air to move faster into the engine.
    Assuming the bike is travelling at a constant speed and rpm, the intake stroke suction time is fixed, therefore the more air you can stuff into the motor during that window of suction, the more fuel the computer will add, the more power it will make.

    The next step after ram air would be forced induction, like a turbo or supercharger, which will collect, compress, and forcibly direct the air towards the engine in greater volume.
    2008 M109R2 Black - Flat black rims, Smoked turn signals, K&N Replacement filters, 2006 Exhaust Debaffled, & HealTech GiPro A-TRE G2.

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    The only reason you need the exterior spike or similar intakes for with this mod is bring COOL air into the space under the tank, since without that you will only be pulling HOT air off the engine into the throttle body.

    BCS

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bering_C_Sparky View Post
    The only reason you need the exterior spike or similar intakes for with this mod is bring COOL air into the space under the tank, since without that you will only be pulling HOT air off the engine into the throttle body.

    BCS
    That's what I was saying, guess he doesn't get it. With the filters sitting directly on the throttle bodies, they will be sucking hot air. A tube on either side directing air from outside up in to the under tank area will keep the air cooler.

    IIRC, the first two, with that tube, used to be a kit that could be purchased.
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    Last edited by cbxer55; 01-19-2019 at 12:52 PM.
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    Here's more.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bering_C_Sparky View Post
    The only reason you need the exterior spike or similar intakes for with this mod is bring COOL air into the space under the tank, since without that you will only be pulling HOT air off the engine into the throttle body.

    BCS
    That's what I was thinking also. The ram air argument threw me off because using that logic, the OEM filters would need ram also. The same suction coming from the TB to the OEM filter, would be the same suction going to a modified flex hose directly to an aftermarket intake. BTW, Im 99% sure I'm getting the intakes you're offering.

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    Quote Originally Posted by cbxer55 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Bering_C_Sparky View Post
    The only reason you need the exterior spike or similar intakes for with this mod is bring COOL air into the space under the tank, since without that you will only be pulling HOT air off the engine into the throttle body.

    BCS
    That's what I was saying, guess he doesn't get it. With the filters sitting directly on the throttle bodies, they will be sucking hot air. A tube on either side directing air from outside up in to the under tank area will keep the air cooler.

    IIRC, the first two, with that tube, used to be a kit that could be purchased.
    I got it now bro. Thanks for the input. 1

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    So you're saying, the original intent you were planning on was eliminating the airbox, and running a tube from the side intakes straight to the throttle bodies? I'm fairly certain you would lose some power if that is the case. The air box itself is designed kind of like a storage space for air. Tubes would likely be fairly restrictive, when compared to the box.
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    One thing to remember, as I have done extensive testing over the years on this, Dyno's are really about producing a number and not great about producing good tuning for when you are going down the road. Hell if you are looking for the best number, with just filters under the tank, why even put the filters on--- the numbers surely will look the best with zero restrictions. However, the true story is the numbers when going down the road. Dyno's are static tuning, meaning stationary, and do not compensate for the forced air from going down the road. Data logging and tuning or a closed loop system is best for that. That being said, filters under the tank do not receive forced air, soooo the Hp numbers would be down for going down the road, but the Tq numbers may look good up to a certain point.

    Ask any engine builder and they will tell you Hot air robs Hp, cold air is much denser and allows for more air to fit into the combustion chamber--- which means more HP with the proper tune.

    A good majority of internet wanna bee Hp guys will say this mod or product or "Do this" makes great power on mine. However the most that can be backed up is by a Dyno number. The only real number is the one where it is a proven before number and proven after number. That difference is the only true data and will vary depending on the bike, dyno, and environment.

    Also, any dyno guy that has been doing it for awhile can make the numbers look any way they want for a desired effect by changing parameters in the software. Hell, just ride the dyno brake a bit on the before number and the after number looks awesome.

    Just some thoughts for you all to consider.
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    Quote Originally Posted by futurR View Post
    One thing to remember, as I have done extensive testing over the years on this, Dyno's are really about producing a number and not great about producing good tuning for when you are going down the road. Hell if you are looking for the best number, with just filters under the tank, why even put the filters on--- the numbers surely will look the best with zero restrictions. However, the true story is the numbers when going down the road. Dyno's are static tuning, meaning stationary, and do not compensate for the forced air from going down the road. Data logging and tuning or a closed loop system is best for that. That being said, filters under the tank do not receive forced air, soooo the Hp numbers would be down for going down the road, but the Tq numbers may look good up to a certain point.

    Ask any engine builder and they will tell you Hot air robs Hp, cold air is much denser and allows for more air to fit into the combustion chamber--- which means more HP with the proper tune.

    A good majority of internet wanna bee Hp guys will say this mod or product or "Do this" makes great power on mine. However the most that can be backed up is by a Dyno number. The only real number is the one where it is a proven before number and proven after number. That difference is the only true data and will vary depending on the bike, dyno, and environment.

    Also, any dyno guy that has been doing it for awhile can make the numbers look any way they want for a desired effect by changing parameters in the software. Hell, just ride the dyno brake a bit on the before number and the after number looks awesome.

    Just some thoughts for you all to consider.
    I 100% agree. Maybe I wasnt clear. I want to run from the filters, to the TB, not filters directly on the TB. Any thoughts?

  20. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by cbxer55 View Post
    Here's more.
    I'm interested in fabricating a metal piece like the one in the last picture (Included here), anyone have this template?
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    I also seem to recall reading about air pulses without the air box. The air box is there for a reason. I'm sure there's a lot that can be done to achieve the highest HP reading at WOT, but you very likely will lose "rideability" as a result.

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    Quote Originally Posted by HyperPete View Post
    I also seem to recall reading about air pulses without the air box. The air box is there for a reason. I'm sure there's a lot that can be done to achieve the highest HP reading at WOT, but you very likely will lose "rideability" as a result.
    Here's what I know anecdotally; Fred M has an 08 with very close to 200K miles on it. He's had his airbox out for as long as I've known him and has no issues with any low end performance, rideability or reliability from that standpoint. And his 9 will walk away from mine at high speed roll on's like I'm standing still. He swears up and down by this mod. I should also mention, he still has the stock salad bowls in place, so he doesn't even have any specialized routing of cool air up under the tank. Based on my observation of his experience over the last year (about how long we've been friends) and 2 other's I know who had basically the same set up, I think it'll be ok. Once I've done it, and have it in place for a while, I'll come back and give my LTR on it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mythos View Post
    I'm interested in fabricating a metal piece like the one in the last picture (Included here), anyone have this template?
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    I messaged the man who designed that plate and he sent me the CAD drawing so I could have my own made, I ended up getting 5 copies made (brought the cost per part down) and I duplicated his setup on my 18’

    As for performance, as you can see by the pic I also put on turna dumps exhaust and I had the ECU flashed by BCS, yesterday I put about 100kms on it and a few times I was able to smoke the tire in second gear while rolling along, so I’d say the setup works amazing!


  24. #22
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    Stock rear tire smokes pretty easily. I used to smoke mine at the first-to-second shift all the time. Wasn't even trying that hard, just make the shift, nail it, and next thing I know, the rear is drifting sideways. Once you ditch the stock rear tire, that will stop. Any of the available rear tires that fit our bike are more sticky than the factory tire is. And, if like me, you go ten inch and 280, forget about smoking it. I guess if you really want to, you can do it. But it doesn't do it as easily as the stock tire did.

    So, if you still have a stock rear tire on your bike, don't use that as justification for how much power the bike makes because you can smoke it in second. LOL!!
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  25. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by cbxer55 View Post
    Stock rear tire smokes pretty easily. I used to smoke mine at the first-to-second shift all the time. Wasn't even trying that hard, just make the shift, nail it, and next thing I know, the rear is drifting sideways. Once you ditch the stock rear tire, that will stop. Any of the available rear tires that fit our bike are more sticky than the factory tire is. And, if like me, you go ten inch and 280, forget about smoking it. I guess if you really want to, you can do it. But it doesn't do it as easily as the stock tire did.

    So, if you still have a stock rear tire on your bike, don't use that as justification for how much power the bike makes because you can smoke it in second. LOL!!
    I have a Dunlop E3 250 and I didn’t spin the tire during the shift, I was already rolling in second and nailed it and it started to spin.... no clutch work involved.... it never did that before....
    Last edited by Chrispy; 3 Weeks Ago at 11:21 AM.

  26. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chrispy View Post
    I have a Dunlop E3 250 and I didn’t spin the tire during the shift, I was already rolling in second and nailed it and it started to spin.... no clutch work involved.... it never did that before....
    My E3 250s got REALLY "greasy" as they wore down. It was hard not to spin them. After I switched to Avons that stopped. Now I have a 10" and a 280. Still, I would love to see a dyno sheet from a standard dyno like a Dynojet 250.

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    Quote Originally Posted by HyperPete View Post
    My E3 250s got REALLY "greasy" as they wore down. It was hard not to spin them. After I switched to Avons that stopped. Now I have a 10" and a 280. Still, I would love to see a dyno sheet from a standard dyno like a Dynojet 250.
    The only baseline number I can use was my 1/4 mile time, stock my best time was [email protected] so I’ll run it down the track to compare those numbers

  28. #26
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    Cold air intake and ram air surely has its undoubted benefits even if you don't completely comprehend the science behind it. With that said simple air flow can have huge changes on an engines performance. Yes adding cold air will amplify this but starting with the basics cannot be over thrown and that is simply less restriction equals more flow and with proper tuning, more power.

    For the old timers here let me take you back to a simpler day. A day where the only true fuel injection was mechanical, cold air intakes were not an option and ram air was mostly from a huge scoop mounted above the hole in the hood. Where crabs were King and EFI wasn't even a dream.
    The first mod you ever did was flip the carb hat. You effectively just made all the hot air under the hood Available to make power. Guess what everyone did it. Why because it worked and still does. Increasing air flow will increase power. That's a fact. Doesn't matter if if is an actual air compressor of these liquid dinosaur powered machines we all love and beat with furry! In the end you will do what you set out to accomplish. Is there a more effective version? Absolutely, cold air and any sort of forced induction will out perform any hot air intake you can dream of.

    Time, data logging and someone who can read data is the only way to pull all that power out. I'm all for the air box delete and will be fabricating my own version on the '06 when the engine is together and in the bike.
    Chrissy.. Go for it and if you don't like the results then go back to the air box or my personal favorite Forced induction!
    Good luck and keep stirring the pot!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chrispy View Post
    I messaged the man who designed that plate and he sent me the CAD drawing so I could have my own made, I ended up getting 5 copies made (brought the cost per part down) and I duplicated his setup on my 18’

    As for performance, as you can see by the pic I also put on turna dumps exhaust and I had the ECU flashed by BCS, yesterday I put about 100kms on it and a few times I was able to smoke the tire in second gear while rolling along, so I’d say the setup works amazing!
    Ok, so I have to ask the obvious question here...do you still have any of the 5 you had made? Otherwise, do you have the design, or someway i can get access to a template? My buddy works as an Aircraft mechanic and can fabricate the piece for me, just need the deign or template and specs...
    Michael -
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  30. #28
    Very Active Member cbxer55's Avatar
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    I'm an aircraft mechanic as well. I just made some fog light brackets for my friends 02 Ford Lightning. The original owner had cut them off. I got the lights from him and made new ones. This looks like nothing more than a piece of "L" stock of a certain length with holes in it for the sensors. Piece-of-pie, easy-as-cake.

    I just made something similar today to hang darts on my garage wall next to the dart board. Took me an hour including painting it. There's an Ace Hardware one mile from me, I buy my metal there. Nice selection of aluminum and steel, lots of hardware selection.
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  31. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mythos View Post
    Ok, so I have to ask the obvious question here...do you still have any of the 5 you had made? Otherwise, do you have the design, or someway i can get access to a template? My buddy works as an Aircraft mechanic and can fabricate the piece for me, just need the deign or template and specs...
    PM sent

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    Quote Originally Posted by BOSS_man View Post
    I 100% agree. Maybe I wasnt clear. I want to run from the filters, to the TB, not filters directly on the TB. Any thoughts?
    Like cbxer said, the airbox is there to provide a certain volume of air without restriction. If you run tubes directly to the tb's, the only volume of air immediately available will be what is in the tubes and not sitting directly above the tb's. May be better to try and get larger tubes from the intakes to the airbox, to me, those seem like the most restrictive part of the puzzle if you have good intakes.

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