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What clutch shudder does to your clutch parts.

70K views 200 replies 68 participants last post by  08nikki 
#1 · (Edited)


Above is a pic of 3 different sets of wave washer, seat, and #6 drive plates. These were oem to their perspective bikes and were replaced due to shudder. Ths post is for the doubters and "type of oil" solvers and for those who just want to know. The doubters---this is for real and evryone will experience this at some point (wether you admit it or not). The "oil type" guys, well if no oil is ever getting to these parts and the ajoining clutch plates (fibers/steels), then how does the type of oil ever going to matter. The pics below show the damage to the #6 plate from the wave washer due to lack of oil.



See the line above where the "teeth" are. That line at the base of the plate where the teeth begin. That is a groove wore into the plate from the inside diameter of the wave washer. That gooey mess on the plate is from a very tiny bit of oil, that was probably from the factory soaked plates, and has since fried/baked to the plate from lack of further oiling which caused way to much heat to occur.



The line is a bit more visible in this set that was completely fried (plates included) from mis-adjustment of the cable.



That line is even more visible in this cleaned up plate. The wear is approx. 1/3rd of the thickness of the plate worn into it.



Now the above pic is the reverse side of its corresponding pic from above it. Yes, you could just flip that plate around in the stack and save some money, but unless you do the Adjustment Pin Mod (not the push pin--which is the black plastic push pin that is used throughout our bike) that wear will continue to come back again. I recommend doing the pin mod for oiling---yes, it will get some oil to your plates. I also recommend doing the 3 sides ground as opposed to the 2 side grind. Reason for that is when you grind 2 sides, if ground too much, there is a chance for side play in the pin to occur. If you grind 3 sides, you do not need to grind as much into it and the chances of side play are greatly reduced.

Just for everyone, I have taken apart atleast 30 9's for this very reason---clutch shudder. Every 9 taken apart, the clutch plates showed zero oil on them. Those bikes have run various types of oil ie: amsoil, suzuki dyno and synth, mobile 1 auto and MC, rotella, royal purple, honda, castrol 4t, and others. Our clutch is advertised to be a semi-wet clutch, but none have been wet in any form. So, the type of oil matters not, the parts speak for that. Yes, for those that just want to do the pin mod, that might work---but the damage to the #6 plate is already there and not allowing proper tension on the wave washer due to the wear (groove). So, I highly recommend you replace the parts. It should eliminate the shudder if you replace the parts and do the pin mod. One without the other, well it probably will come back at some point.

I hope this helps your understanding of what is going on inside your clutch pack and gives you a bit more info or reason to do it the right way. Any questions, well you know where I am at.

Sent from EVO bouncing off a couple satellites.
 
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#3 ·
One set is yours, I think. Done so many, I am starting to lose track of which and the ones tossed in the can.
 
#5 ·
Well, the cost of the parts usually around $50 for the parts. The time to replace parts and do the pin mod is usually around 1.5hrs. I almost always will do the bluey fix and go ahead and do the tube nut also. So, my time is usually closer to 2-2.5hrs from start to finish--depends somewhat on the exhaust. So the hourly rate will vary on most of you---hence the cost will vary. For me, parts/labor to just replace parts and modificaions, well you are into about the $170 range (exhaust dependant). Almost all have had me do other things and mods at the same time. It is also a great time to do the front mounts if they have never been replaced before.
 
#11 · (Edited)
Thanks for clarification , I never had clutch shudder ,
but this winter I am using the how-to by Listan 1
and I am doing the "adjustment pin mod " ( :D see I'm with you on changing the
nickname of this mod ) , I had read in some thread about doing 3 flat spots
instead of 2 , but it was not mentioned often , and there was no explanation
about ;why 3 and not 2 flat spots , now I know better .
I guess as you say ,I will order my motor mounts ,
and replace them while the exhaust is off the bike .
..
Motor mounts part # 11652-10G30 , get 4 , ( or 6)
# 22 = Adjustment pin # 23121-41G00 not needed , but mod it 3 sides
# 06 = plate clutch drive # 2 l T:2.0 #21441-48G40 --11.98
# 12 = seat wave washer .#21471-48G00 --$ 9.01
# 13 = washer clutch plate #21472-48G10 -- $ 16.50
..
so if I get it right , best to get parts : 12 , 13 , and 6
..
image from : http://www.onlinecyclepart.com/page...i/VZR1800_(2008)/CLUTCH/022950007/56022950022
 

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#14 ·
..
Motor mounts part # 11652-10G30 , get 4 ,
# 22 = Adjustment pin # 23121-41G00 not needed , but mod it 3 sides
# 06 = plate clutch drive # 2 l T:2.0 #21441-48G40 --11.98
# 12 = seat wave washer .#21471-48G00 --$ 9.01
# 13 = washer clutch plate #21472-48G10 -- $ 16.50

.. so if I get it right , best to get parts : 12 , 13 and, 6

..
image from : http://www.onlinecyclepart.com/page...i/VZR1800_(2008)/CLUTCH/022950007/56022950022
Yes, #6, 12, 13. #22 is already in your motor, no need to buy it, just modifiy it accordingly.
 
#13 ·
You use what ever the current part # is for the #6 item showing on the clutch fiche. If it shows a different number than what other sites are showing, it will be the most up to date part when it arrives to you. When Suzuki changes a part/part#, all other preceeded numbers get pulled from the shelf. So if you see the item #6 it will be current when it comes to you. The #7,8 and I think 9, are just thicker versions of #6. You should always use #6. The others should only be used by someone who really knows how to measure stack height and clutch packs in general. #6 will suffice for the average person and being on the street.
 
#16 ·
Very informative, thanks for the info Matt:bigthumbsup:
 
#17 ·
Guys, you are more than welcome for this. I did this to try and put to bed some of the myths of solutions for the issue. There really is only one solution and one cause. For those that have never had an issue, as said before, it is only a matter of time.
 
#18 ·
Matt, have you ever considered taking the proof that your mod actually fixes the shudder problem directly to Suzuki engineering? It would be nice if Suzuki would start incorporating this mod into their new 9s so people aren't having this problem. You certainly should have enough proof to make your case....and there's a slew of people in this site alone who would back you up if you needed it....
 
#21 ·
Very informative and eye openning. A buddy of mine just stopped by and we were talking about this very thing. Suzuki should be ashamed of selling a product with this flaw, and not being man enough to do a recall. Even though we all may have this problem, we still love our bikes. Just goes to show that we are not that different from the harley guys. Heck, most of my friends with the newer harleys have fewer problems than we have with our nine.
 
#22 ·
I highly doubt anyone's gonna be able to get Suzuki to do a recall, because as Matt has explained, Suzuki would have to not only install a modded push pin, but they'd also have to replace all the damaged clutch parts on their dime. It would cost them a small fortune to do this with every 9 they've sold. I think a better approach would be to try to get them to start making a new push pin and install them from the factory. It wouldn't cost much for them to design and produce a new push pin with the 3 oil channels, and this would permanently cure the clutch shudder issues, and the damage to the other parts it causes.
 
#25 ·
FuturR,
for those of us that do not know what the pin mod is can you point us to the Thread.. the search on this site is not the best...
a link would be great...
I have the occasional shutter and just ordered the sets of plates including wave etc.. (have close to 20k and figure might as well change them.
but first I hear of Pin mod...

thanks
 
#34 ·
Absolutely... this is what I was looking for... no disrespect to you.. Just in general.. would be nice when People reference other "How-to's" or instructions.. etc...
if they can just add the link right away so the rest of us wouldn't have to look for it.. the search on this site is not the best.. I've used good to search for some stuff on here.. Google is the Bomb :bigthumbsup:.. I found that post you pointed out on google by searching Min Mod M109 and it pointed to this site..

Anyways... thanks a lot..
 
#29 ·
Good info, but that line will come right back with the new plate. I don't think that line has as much to do with the shudder as normal wear from the ring that goes around the teeth. I replaced my #6 plate when I put in my new clutch and the line is back but no shudder. I've never had shudder, but did the pin mod.

In your pic showing number 6 plate you can see a rainbow band running about half way. That says to me that that clutch has been hot, way hot. Which probably means not enough oil. The amount of dirtyness of that plate and in the pics is a sign of a hot clutch too. The only tar like substance on mine was on the wave washer. Was that 6 plate warped at all? What did the fibers look like?
 

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#30 ·
Good info, but that line will come right back with the new plate. I don't think that line has as much to do with the shudder as normal wear from the ring that goes around the teeth. I replaced my #6 plate when I put in my new clutch and the line is back but no shudder. I've never had shudder, but did the pin mod.

In your pic showing number 6 plate you can see a rainbow band running about half way. That says to me that that clutch has been hot, way hot. Which probably means not enough oil. The amount of dirtyness of that plate and in the pics is a sign of a hot clutch too. The only tar like substance on mine was on the wave washer. Was that 6 plate warped at all? What did the fibers look like?
Ben, in the pic you show of mine. That is the pic from the completely fried clutch of TobyZ's. It was due to misadjustment that fried on his trip home from the meet. Everything was fried, the steel plates were black chrome and you could see your reflection in them they were so bad. That groove has more to do with shudder than you think. Take the seat and #6 plate new. Then sandwich the wave washer between them. Give the seat and #6 a set disatnce between them. Now insert the groove. That wave washer with the groove has now increased the contact distance between the plates---that transfers into less spring tension in the wave washer.
Now, you say you have had yours back apart since the pin mod. How did the plates look? Was there oil? Was there oil at the wave washer? Did you grind 2 or 3 spots on the pin? The tar substance you describe has always been on the wave washer and the #6 plate, as shown, on everyone I have taken apart. I think it just gets trapped in there and just fries.
 
#32 ·
If I were fortunate enough to have a company or "CEO" a company like Suzuki, I'd assign someone to watch and study boards like this one and pick out the guys that learn my product inside out. I'd then have some type of seminar where these people would be invited, at our expense, to come meet the engineers and actually show them what works and what doesn't work. Who better to improve and enhance my product than the one's that own it, work on it and come up with ideas for it.

And on a side note, I'd be flying Rainey in to work out a deal to make the Revo Cannon an accessory item for the 9.
 
#33 ·
Thank you very much for all the info Matt! I have done the adjustment pin mod but after seeing your pictures and reading your post I will definitely replace the three clutch components. There is no substitute for experience and you my friend obviously have a lot of experience with these clutches!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
#35 · (Edited)
Done the mods, clutch feels differant

Hi All,

So I finally did this mod after years of clutch shudder. It was getting to the point that it happened almost every take off from a stop. I ordered Items 6, 12 and 13 and shaving the pin in 3 places evenly around the center axis. On the Pin I ground it carefully using an angle grinder with a sanding disk and took it from 12mm to about 11.7mm on each of the 3 "reliefs" In other words I ground off around .3mm on each flat. I hope this is not too much and/or enough to do the job. Also as I was putting the clutch back together I noticed in the parts breakout drawing that the sequence looks wrong. I could be wrong but I swear 12 and 13 were reversed in their order when I took the clutch apart. I put them back in the way I took them out with the Wave washer #12 up against the new plate #6 Inside Diameter against #6 and the washer #13 between the wave washer and the first friction plate. Please advise if I did this wrong. I also lightly oiled the friction plates as I re-installed them all. everything else looked good and all of the plates looked fine.

So now the new clutch feeling. First off the shudder is gone (Woohoo). Its been a long time since I could take off without feeling like the bike was going to shake apart. But I have noticed that its harder to downshift when coming to a stop. Especially when the bike is cold or within the first 15 miles of riding. IT feels much more positive when up shifting as well but goes into gear with decent pressure on the shift lever. But downshifting almost feels like it doesn't want to go into the lower gear sometimes. I don't ride the bike really hard or downshift too early or anything like that. First gear I only go into at around 10mph or less. I'm a bit nervous that something is wrong but wonder if this is just a result of the new parts being installed.

Oh, one more thing, A couple of times after starting the bike and idling in first gear with the clutch pulled in the bike wants to go forward slightly. Like the clutch is just grabbing. If I let the clutch out and pull it again it sometimes goes away but sometimes persists. After riding a bit it doesn't do it anymore. I've noticed it twice in the past week. Otherwise the clutch doesn't seem to slip at all and seems to disengage correctly when stopping or shifting.

Thanks for all the advice you have all contributed on this topic, it really helps us guys out there to have such a great forum to fall back on when there are questions to ask.

Mark
 
#45 ·
Like WindyCityRider, I too plan on taking my bike to Matt for these changes AND the front motor mounts.

Thanks for the info Matt !

WCD
I am finishing up IndyRon's bike now---pics to follow later. Just waiting on some modded risers now. Then all I have is one bike in the garage and it might not be there all that long. Then I am empty for the first time since Jan., but the phone really has not stopped ringing yet. So bring them when ever, I can always make room.
 
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