What clutch shudder does to your clutch parts. - Page 2
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Thread: What clutch shudder does to your clutch parts.

  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by futurR View Post
    Ben, in the pic you show of mine. That is the pic from the completely fried clutch of TobyZ's. It was due to misadjustment that fried on his trip home from the meet. Everything was fried, the steel plates were black chrome and you could see your reflection in them they were so bad. That groove has more to do with shudder than you think. Take the seat and #6 plate new. Then sandwich the wave washer between them. Give the seat and #6 a set disatnce between them. Now insert the groove. That wave washer with the groove has now increased the contact distance between the plates---that transfers into less spring tension in the wave washer.
    Now, you say you have had yours back apart since the pin mod. How did the plates look? Was there oil? Was there oil at the wave washer? Did you grind 2 or 3 spots on the pin? The tar substance you describe has always been on the wave washer and the #6 plate, as shown, on everyone I have taken apart. I think it just gets trapped in there and just fries.
    Wonder if we can rough a little thicker drive plate that they offer. That way when it grooves, it will keep the tolerances where they need to be. Maybe as a precaution?

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  3. #32
    Very Active Member g9r's Avatar
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    If I were fortunate enough to have a company or "CEO" a company like Suzuki, I'd assign someone to watch and study boards like this one and pick out the guys that learn my product inside out. I'd then have some type of seminar where these people would be invited, at our expense, to come meet the engineers and actually show them what works and what doesn't work. Who better to improve and enhance my product than the one's that own it, work on it and come up with ideas for it.

    And on a side note, I'd be flying Rainey in to work out a deal to make the Revo Cannon an accessory item for the 9.

  4. #33
    Very Active Member lmbull's Avatar
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    Thank you very much for all the info Matt! I have done the adjustment pin mod but after seeing your pictures and reading your post I will definitely replace the three clutch components. There is no substitute for experience and you my friend obviously have a lot of experience with these clutches!


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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  6. #34
    Very Active Member Dragonback's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by futurR View Post
    Not going to repeat what others have already done, Listan1 did a decent post.

    Post#6
    https://www.m109riders.com/forums/sho...sh+pin+listan1

    Absolutely... this is what I was looking for... no disrespect to you.. Just in general.. would be nice when People reference other "How-to's" or instructions.. etc...
    if they can just add the link right away so the rest of us wouldn't have to look for it.. the search on this site is not the best.. I've used good to search for some stuff on here.. Google is the Bomb .. I found that post you pointed out on google by searching Min Mod M109 and it pointed to this site..

    Anyways... thanks a lot..

  7. #35
    Very Active Member mark95621's Avatar
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    Default Done the mods, clutch feels differant

    Hi All,

    So I finally did this mod after years of clutch shudder. It was getting to the point that it happened almost every take off from a stop. I ordered Items 6, 12 and 13 and shaving the pin in 3 places evenly around the center axis. On the Pin I ground it carefully using an angle grinder with a sanding disk and took it from 12mm to about 11.7mm on each of the 3 "reliefs" In other words I ground off around .3mm on each flat. I hope this is not too much and/or enough to do the job. Also as I was putting the clutch back together I noticed in the parts breakout drawing that the sequence looks wrong. I could be wrong but I swear 12 and 13 were reversed in their order when I took the clutch apart. I put them back in the way I took them out with the Wave washer #12 up against the new plate #6 Inside Diameter against #6 and the washer #13 between the wave washer and the first friction plate. Please advise if I did this wrong. I also lightly oiled the friction plates as I re-installed them all. everything else looked good and all of the plates looked fine.

    So now the new clutch feeling. First off the shudder is gone (Woohoo). Its been a long time since I could take off without feeling like the bike was going to shake apart. But I have noticed that its harder to downshift when coming to a stop. Especially when the bike is cold or within the first 15 miles of riding. IT feels much more positive when up shifting as well but goes into gear with decent pressure on the shift lever. But downshifting almost feels like it doesn't want to go into the lower gear sometimes. I don't ride the bike really hard or downshift too early or anything like that. First gear I only go into at around 10mph or less. I'm a bit nervous that something is wrong but wonder if this is just a result of the new parts being installed.

    Oh, one more thing, A couple of times after starting the bike and idling in first gear with the clutch pulled in the bike wants to go forward slightly. Like the clutch is just grabbing. If I let the clutch out and pull it again it sometimes goes away but sometimes persists. After riding a bit it doesn't do it anymore. I've noticed it twice in the past week. Otherwise the clutch doesn't seem to slip at all and seems to disengage correctly when stopping or shifting.

    Thanks for all the advice you have all contributed on this topic, it really helps us guys out there to have such a great forum to fall back on when there are questions to ask.

    Mark
    Last edited by mark95621; 09-19-2012 at 03:18 PM.
    '08 Orange (More LE then LE), 250 club, De-Beavered, Arlen Ness Rad II Teardrop Mirrors, Custom JSD, Custom GPS mount and 12V adapter, Custom License plate mount, Custom License plate LED lights, De-baffled stock exhaust.

  8. #36
    Very Active Member futurR's Avatar
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    Your cable is not adjusted properly.
    I am almost always working on a bike. If you have questions and need an answer quickly, just call me. 317-507-0940. Always up late. There will be time for sleep when I am dead!

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    Very Active Member windycityrider's Avatar
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    as always, thank you for such an infomative post matt. i hope to take you my bike in mid-october if you have the time. look to get the "big 3" mods done.


    OFTEN IMITATED BUT NEVER DUPLICATED.......THE
    WINDY CITY IS MY PLAYGROUND

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    I have seen a few posts but I am still not sure which way around the wave/bevel washer should go
    can anyone explain clearly?
    very slightly modified

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    Quote Originally Posted by jhorsf View Post
    I have seen a few posts but I am still not sure which way around the wave/bevel washer should go
    can anyone explain clearly?
    Picture it like a glass. Set the glass down on the engine. Does that make sense?

  12. #40
    Very Active Member jhorsf's Avatar
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    so the outside of the washer goes against the engine side and the inside diameter against the clutch plates?
    very slightly modified

  13. #41
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    For those that have done this mod, has anyone opened up the clutch after a good amount of time to see how much oil is now on the plates. Also has the blueing gone away, as well as the burnt gunky oil left behind.

  14. #42
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    Like WindyCityRider, I too plan on taking my bike to Matt for these changes AND the front motor mounts.

    Thanks for the info Matt !


    WCD

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    Quote Originally Posted by WindyCityDave View Post
    Like WindyCityRider, I too plan on taking my bike to Matt for these changes AND the front motor mounts.

    Thanks for the info Matt !


    WCD
    Sounds like someone's going to get slammed this off season .. Better start knocking down some shop walls .

  16. #44
    Very Active Member futurR's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jhorsf View Post
    I have seen a few posts but I am still not sure which way around the wave/bevel washer should go
    can anyone explain clearly?
    Quote Originally Posted by antmor69 View Post
    Picture it like a glass. Set the glass down on the engine. Does that make sense?
    The washer comes from the factory with the inside diameter pointing to the engine. The larger outside diameter is outward. To be honest, it should not matter all that much which direction it is facing.
    I am almost always working on a bike. If you have questions and need an answer quickly, just call me. 317-507-0940. Always up late. There will be time for sleep when I am dead!

  17. #45
    Very Active Member futurR's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by windycityrider View Post
    as always, thank you for such an infomative post matt. i hope to take you my bike in mid-october if you have the time. look to get the "big 3" mods done.
    Quote Originally Posted by WindyCityDave View Post
    Like WindyCityRider, I too plan on taking my bike to Matt for these changes AND the front motor mounts.

    Thanks for the info Matt !


    WCD


    I am finishing up IndyRon's bike now---pics to follow later. Just waiting on some modded risers now. Then all I have is one bike in the garage and it might not be there all that long. Then I am empty for the first time since Jan., but the phone really has not stopped ringing yet. So bring them when ever, I can always make room.
    I am almost always working on a bike. If you have questions and need an answer quickly, just call me. 317-507-0940. Always up late. There will be time for sleep when I am dead!

  18. #46
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    Still have the Busa in there Matt?

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    Very Active Member jhorsf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by futurR View Post
    The washer comes from the factory with the inside diameter pointing to the engine. The larger outside diameter is outward. To be honest, it should not matter all that much which direction it is facing.


    Thank you that is perfectly clear to me now
    very slightly modified

  20. #48
    Very Active Member futurR's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by STL-TIGER View Post
    Still have the Busa in there Matt?


    No, he has been riding it for a bit now. Will be back in sometime to finish off the gauges---have to make a one off bracket for a larger set.
    I am almost always working on a bike. If you have questions and need an answer quickly, just call me. 317-507-0940. Always up late. There will be time for sleep when I am dead!

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    Quote Originally Posted by futurR View Post
    The washer comes from the factory with the inside diameter pointing to the engine. The larger outside diameter is outward. To be honest, it should not matter all that much which direction it is facing.
    That's exactly what I was trying to describe. Bottom of the glass being smaller against the engine and top of the glass being larger towards the outside.

  22. #50
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    thanks for the reply guys. I think I'm at about 16k and still on the original clutch cable. I have never had to adjust it but the lever is tight when released all the way, as in no slop in the lever at all. Could then new parts have spaced out the clutch just enough to require an adjustment on the clutch cable? good to know that I didn't put it back together wrong. Maybe someone else will find this useful when doing their own repair.

    Mark
    '08 Orange (More LE then LE), 250 club, De-Beavered, Arlen Ness Rad II Teardrop Mirrors, Custom JSD, Custom GPS mount and 12V adapter, Custom License plate mount, Custom License plate LED lights, De-baffled stock exhaust.

  23. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by mark95621 View Post
    I have never had to adjust it but the lever is tight when released all the way, as in no slop in the lever at all.

    Mark
    you need to have some slack , absolutely need it ,
    it is about the motor mounts , and this big strong engine
    that moves when you open up the throttle , and when it
    moves, it pulls on the clutch cable , if you have no slack
    your clutch cable will break .
    the usual distance being mentioned here is the thickness
    of 2 quarters is needed , if a bit more = OK , if less =the
    more chances of breaking your clutch cable .
    ..
    Thanks to Big B for the pictures.
    ..
    After you have adjusted it with some slack at the clutch lever
    go for a ride and when you get on the gas , and really open it up
    keep a finger on your clutch lever , you will feel the engine
    pulling the clutch cable and lever , now imagine that it is already
    tight on the perch and the effects of this massive pulling on the cable
    you will quickly understand why so many clutch cables break on the 9s.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Click image for larger version. 

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    Last edited by Kazimodo; 09-20-2012 at 11:26 AM.
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  24. #52
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    Great thread.

    I did this mod back in spring, and it has completely resolved the shutter issue. Unfortunately back when I did it, the pin mod was to do 2 sides, which is what I did. I'm thinking the next time I have to remove the pipes, I'll tear back into it and see how it held up, maybe even replace the pin to one with a 3-sided mod.

    For those looking to do this mod, it is fairly easy if you are comfortable wrenching your bike. Everything comes off pretty easy, and just goes back on in reverse order. No special tools where required. It does take some time, but I found it a very rewarding mod. I feel much more comfortable tearing into the bike now that I've accomplished this mod.
    2008 M109R2 fast black.

  25. #53
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    I have adjusted the cable to be looser and in fact its as loose as I can make it at the grip. I can confirm that the clutch has some slack during a heavy load as the motor winds up and stretches the cable. Even still I am feeling the slipping when hard acceleration is required, like passing a vehicle or coming hot out of a corner. The clutch is fully engaged when it starts slipping.

    I am also still seeing the hard down shifting when cold. It takes around 10 miles or so before it starts downshifting smoothly without forcing it. I sometimes feel like I almost have to stand on the lever to get it into a lower gear when I'm coming to a stop. Note that when the motor is off it shift easy.

    Also still have the issue when I am starting up in the morning and shift into first gear with the clutch pulled in I can feel the clutch "grabbing" slightly trying to pull the bike forward. If I'm on a level surface the bike will start moving forward slowly with the clutch in.

    I read about an adjustment to the pin, could that fix all of my symptoms? I don't mind getting back in there if that's what it is. I find it a little strange that by not doing anything to the pin except grind 3 flats in it, that I could have so many new problems. That said its still worth it, I am really happy the shudder is gone.
    '08 Orange (More LE then LE), 250 club, De-Beavered, Arlen Ness Rad II Teardrop Mirrors, Custom JSD, Custom GPS mount and 12V adapter, Custom License plate mount, Custom License plate LED lights, De-baffled stock exhaust.

  26. #54
    Very Active Member Blackey's Avatar
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    So before replacing parts 6, 12, 13 and reinstalling the other disks, do you soak in oil? If so, what type?
    09 "Blackey" - Swept, Engine Case Guarded, Derby'd, Iso Gripped, Badged, Boned, De-Shuddered, Beavered, Risen, Cabled


  27. #55
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    Doubters? You doubt that anyone has not had this issue? My 06 has 17,000 miles and I have experienced no clutch related issues, NONE. I would know it and admit it if I had. I do keep about three quarters worth of free play at the lever, so maybe that helps. Heck, my clutch cable is still routed as it came from the factory, and I've not experienced any issues.

    I've not had any issues with this bike period, excepting the fuel rail recall. My back rotor is still tight as a drum, but note I am not a heavy back brake user. Had the oil puke one time, way back when. Since then routed the oil hoses to a catch bottle under the left engine cover, which has been empty since. Had one minor coolant leak back after I first bought the bike, the usual loose clamp that almost everyone has.

    I love this bike, it's been good to me. Of course, 17,000 miles after six years is not a lot. But Oklahoma is short really nice roads to ride on and ideal weather year round. I'll be getting my second Dunlop 250 sometime next year.
    SILVER 2006 M109R.
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  28. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blackey View Post
    So before replacing parts 6, 12, 13 and reinstalling the other disks, do you soak in oil? If so, what type?
    Yes, same oil you put in the engine.

  29. #57
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    Great write up and thread! Thanks for all the info. I have been experiencing this issue around 3500 RPMs while riding the bike. I was afraid to ride my bike due to these issues I have been experiencing. Anyoneknow of a reliable source in Florida to get my bike fixed?

    Thanks to the forum members for all the valuable information!

    G


  30. #58
    Very Active Member Blackey's Avatar
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    I did it!!! Replaced the Adjustment Pin with 3 side flat modded, Parts 6, 12, and 13. Even though it was wet out...went for a drive...and happy to report the Shudder is GONE!!!!!

    Many thanks to Matt!!!! Really appreciate you taking the time to help me!!! Also appreciate contributors to this thread. Below are some pics of my (#6) clutch plate which has a major groove worn through it from the inside diameter of the wave washer. Plates where bone dry when I took them out. Keep in mind this 109 had only 2400 miles. Previous owner did have it stored outside for a while, which I think helped gum up the oil and contribute to wearing the clutch plate.

    Edited to add: Soaked plates in Mobile1 overnight before reinstall.

    If you have shudder...get the balls to do this. It was not that hard and makes ALL the difference in the world.


    Deep groove from the wave washer



    Not sure what that other line is...
    Last edited by Blackey; 11-01-2012 at 10:45 AM.
    09 "Blackey" - Swept, Engine Case Guarded, Derby'd, Iso Gripped, Badged, Boned, De-Shuddered, Beavered, Risen, Cabled


  31. #59
    Very Active Member futurR's Avatar
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    That is a clutch fiber plate slipping on that plate. Make sure you have the adjustments done correctly and enough free play in the cable. That plate shows the starting of hot spotting. Also, I hope you did the pin mod while in there.

    Sent from my EVO bouncing off a couple of satellites!
    I am almost always working on a bike. If you have questions and need an answer quickly, just call me. 317-507-0940. Always up late. There will be time for sleep when I am dead!

  32. #60
    Very Active Member Blackey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by futurR View Post
    That is a clutch fiber plate slipping on that plate. Make sure you have the adjustments done correctly and enough free play in the cable. That plate shows the starting of hot spotting. Also, I hope you did the pin mod while in there.

    Sent from my EVO bouncing off a couple of satellites!
    Absolutely...replaced the Adjustment pin with the 3 side flat modded pin...many thanks for that!!! I can totally see how it will be way more effective at providing oil to the plates. Gonna ride a few miles and then change oil. BTW...soaked all the plates in Mobile1 overnight before reinstall. Also...had "three quarters" worth of play in the clutch before the work. Now it is a lot tighter...will adjust to allow some appropriate relief in the cable.
    09 "Blackey" - Swept, Engine Case Guarded, Derby'd, Iso Gripped, Badged, Boned, De-Shuddered, Beavered, Risen, Cabled


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