What clutch shudder does to your clutch parts.
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Thread: What clutch shudder does to your clutch parts.

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    Very Active Member futurR's Avatar
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    Default What clutch shudder does to your clutch parts.



    Above is a pic of 3 different sets of wave washer, seat, and #6 drive plates. These were oem to their perspective bikes and were replaced due to shudder. Ths post is for the doubters and "type of oil" solvers and for those who just want to know. The doubters---this is for real and evryone will experience this at some point (wether you admit it or not). The "oil type" guys, well if no oil is ever getting to these parts and the ajoining clutch plates (fibers/steels), then how does the type of oil ever going to matter. The pics below show the damage to the #6 plate from the wave washer due to lack of oil.



    See the line above where the "teeth" are. That line at the base of the plate where the teeth begin. That is a groove wore into the plate from the inside diameter of the wave washer. That gooey mess on the plate is from a very tiny bit of oil, that was probably from the factory soaked plates, and has since fried/baked to the plate from lack of further oiling which caused way to much heat to occur.



    The line is a bit more visible in this set that was completely fried (plates included) from mis-adjustment of the cable.




    That line is even more visible in this cleaned up plate. The wear is approx. 1/3rd of the thickness of the plate worn into it.



    Now the above pic is the reverse side of its corresponding pic from above it. Yes, you could just flip that plate around in the stack and save some money, but unless you do the Adjustment Pin Mod (not the push pin--which is the black plastic push pin that is used throughout our bike) that wear will continue to come back again. I recommend doing the pin mod for oiling---yes, it will get some oil to your plates. I also recommend doing the 3 sides ground as opposed to the 2 side grind. Reason for that is when you grind 2 sides, if ground too much, there is a chance for side play in the pin to occur. If you grind 3 sides, you do not need to grind as much into it and the chances of side play are greatly reduced.

    Just for everyone, I have taken apart atleast 30 9's for this very reason---clutch shudder. Every 9 taken apart, the clutch plates showed zero oil on them. Those bikes have run various types of oil ie: amsoil, suzuki dyno and synth, mobile 1 auto and MC, rotella, royal purple, honda, castrol 4t, and others. Our clutch is advertised to be a semi-wet clutch, but none have been wet in any form. So, the type of oil matters not, the parts speak for that. Yes, for those that just want to do the pin mod, that might work---but the damage to the #6 plate is already there and not allowing proper tension on the wave washer due to the wear (groove). So, I highly recommend you replace the parts. It should eliminate the shudder if you replace the parts and do the pin mod. One without the other, well it probably will come back at some point.

    I hope this helps your understanding of what is going on inside your clutch pack and gives you a bit more info or reason to do it the right way. Any questions, well you know where I am at.


    Sent from EVO bouncing off a couple satellites.
    Last edited by futurR; 09-02-2012 at 03:32 PM.
    I am almost always working on a bike. If you have questions and need an answer quickly, just call me. 317-507-0940. Always up late. There will be time for sleep when I am dead!

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    Very Active Member STL-TIGER's Avatar
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    Were those mine or the set you showed me when I was there?

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    Very Active Member futurR's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by STL-TIGER View Post
    Were those mine or the set you showed me when I was there?
    One set is yours, I think. Done so many, I am starting to lose track of which and the ones tossed in the can.
    I am almost always working on a bike. If you have questions and need an answer quickly, just call me. 317-507-0940. Always up late. There will be time for sleep when I am dead!

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    Very Active Member g9r's Avatar
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    Matt,

    What type of $$$ are we talking about to fully address this problem. I do not have the dreaded shudder as of yet but it looks as though it's only a matter or time from what I've read.

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    Very Active Member futurR's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by g9r View Post
    Matt,

    What type of $$$ are we talking about to fully address this problem. I do not have the dreaded shudder as of yet but it looks as though it's only a matter or time from what I've read.
    Well, the cost of the parts usually around $50 for the parts. The time to replace parts and do the pin mod is usually around 1.5hrs. I almost always will do the bluey fix and go ahead and do the tube nut also. So, my time is usually closer to 2-2.5hrs from start to finish--depends somewhat on the exhaust. So the hourly rate will vary on most of you---hence the cost will vary. For me, parts/labor to just replace parts and modificaions, well you are into about the $170 range (exhaust dependant). Almost all have had me do other things and mods at the same time. It is also a great time to do the front mounts if they have never been replaced before.
    I am almost always working on a bike. If you have questions and need an answer quickly, just call me. 317-507-0940. Always up late. There will be time for sleep when I am dead!

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    Very Active Member lostrider's Avatar
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    Good info Matt. Thanks.

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    Very Active Member bulle109's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lostrider View Post
    Good info Matt. Thanks.
    Thank you for posting Matt.
    [SIGP

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    Very Active Member g9r's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lostrider View Post
    Good info Matt. Thanks.
    Quote Originally Posted by bulle109 View Post
    Thank you for posting Matt.
    I 3rd this.

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    Active Member 06 Burple's Avatar
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    This is some really great info. I don't have the shudder yet, but i will surely remember this post.
    06 Burple with chrome wheels and alot of other mods. Mod Bug = NBM(nothing but money)

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    Good to know there is a resource a state away that can fix this issue if/when it shows up.

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    Very Active Member Kazimodo's Avatar
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    Thanks for clarification , I never had clutch shudder ,
    but this winter I am using the how-to by Listan 1
    and I am doing the "adjustment pin mod " ( see I'm with you on changing the
    nickname of this mod ) , I had read in some thread about doing 3 flat spots
    instead of 2 , but it was not mentioned often , and there was no explanation
    about ;why 3 and not 2 flat spots , now I know better .
    I guess as you say ,I will order my motor mounts ,
    and replace them while the exhaust is off the bike .
    ..
    Motor mounts part # 11652-10G30 , get 4 , ( or 6)
    # 22 = Adjustment pin # 23121-41G00 not needed , but mod it 3 sides
    # 06 = plate clutch drive # 2 l T:2.0 #21441-48G40 --11.98
    # 12 = seat wave washer .#21471-48G00 --$ 9.01
    # 13 = washer clutch plate #21472-48G10 -- $ 16.50
    ..
    so if I get it right , best to get parts : 12 , 13 , and 6
    ..
    image from : http://www.onlinecyclepart.com/pages...07/56022950022
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    Very Active Member lmbull's Avatar
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    Matt,
    Do you use 21441-48G10 or 21441-48G40?

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    Very Active Member futurR's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lmbull View Post
    Matt,
    Do you use 21441-48G10 or 21441-48G40?


    You use what ever the current part # is for the #6 item showing on the clutch fiche. If it shows a different number than what other sites are showing, it will be the most up to date part when it arrives to you. When Suzuki changes a part/part#, all other preceeded numbers get pulled from the shelf. So if you see the item #6 it will be current when it comes to you. The #7,8 and I think 9, are just thicker versions of #6. You should always use #6. The others should only be used by someone who really knows how to measure stack height and clutch packs in general. #6 will suffice for the average person and being on the street.
    I am almost always working on a bike. If you have questions and need an answer quickly, just call me. 317-507-0940. Always up late. There will be time for sleep when I am dead!

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    Very Active Member futurR's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kazimodo View Post
    ..
    Motor mounts part # 11652-10G30 , get 4 ,
    # 22 = Adjustment pin # 23121-41G00 not needed , but mod it 3 sides
    # 06 = plate clutch drive # 2 l T:2.0 #21441-48G40 --11.98
    # 12 = seat wave washer .#21471-48G00 --$ 9.01
    # 13 = washer clutch plate #21472-48G10 -- $ 16.50

    .. so if I get it right , best to get parts : 12 , 13 and, 6

    ..
    image from : http://www.onlinecyclepart.com/pages...07/56022950022


    Yes, #6, 12, 13. #22 is already in your motor, no need to buy it, just modifiy it accordingly.
    I am almost always working on a bike. If you have questions and need an answer quickly, just call me. 317-507-0940. Always up late. There will be time for sleep when I am dead!

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    Radio Active Member Zoom's Avatar
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    Great pictures Matt, and great explanation on what is and isn't happening in there.






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    Very Active Member SilverSurfer's Avatar
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    Very informative, thanks for the info Matt
    Never tell the truth to people who are not worthy of it....Mark Twain
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    Very Active Member futurR's Avatar
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    Guys, you are more than welcome for this. I did this to try and put to bed some of the myths of solutions for the issue. There really is only one solution and one cause. For those that have never had an issue, as said before, it is only a matter of time.
    I am almost always working on a bike. If you have questions and need an answer quickly, just call me. 317-507-0940. Always up late. There will be time for sleep when I am dead!

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    Matt, have you ever considered taking the proof that your mod actually fixes the shudder problem directly to Suzuki engineering? It would be nice if Suzuki would start incorporating this mod into their new 9s so people aren't having this problem. You certainly should have enough proof to make your case....and there's a slew of people in this site alone who would back you up if you needed it....

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    Great post. Thanks for taking the time to post the info.
    Samdman84
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    Very Active Member DEADLYCHEEZE's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by grampi View Post
    Matt, have you ever considered taking the proof that your mod actually fixes the shudder problem directly to Suzuki engineering? It would be nice if Suzuki would start incorporating this mod into their new 9s so people aren't having this problem. You certainly should have enough proof to make your case....and there's a slew of people in this site alone who would back you up if you needed it....
    I couldn't agree more. Last Friday I had my tube nut back off and I shaved my pin down. It hasn't run better. Shifts a lot easier now and it runs great.

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    Very Active Member blacklightning's Avatar
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    Very informative and eye openning. A buddy of mine just stopped by and we were talking about this very thing. Suzuki should be ashamed of selling a product with this flaw, and not being man enough to do a recall. Even though we all may have this problem, we still love our bikes. Just goes to show that we are not that different from the harley guys. Heck, most of my friends with the newer harleys have fewer problems than we have with our nine.

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    Quote Originally Posted by blacklightning View Post
    Very informative and eye openning. A buddy of mine just stopped by and we were talking about this very thing. Suzuki should be ashamed of selling a product with this flaw, and not being man enough to do a recall. Even though we all may have this problem, we still love our bikes. Just goes to show that we are not that different from the harley guys. Heck, most of my friends with the newer harleys have fewer problems than we have with our nine.
    I highly doubt anyone's gonna be able to get Suzuki to do a recall, because as Matt has explained, Suzuki would have to not only install a modded push pin, but they'd also have to replace all the damaged clutch parts on their dime. It would cost them a small fortune to do this with every 9 they've sold. I think a better approach would be to try to get them to start making a new push pin and install them from the factory. It wouldn't cost much for them to design and produce a new push pin with the 3 oil channels, and this would permanently cure the clutch shudder issues, and the damage to the other parts it causes.

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    Very Active Member blacklightning's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by grampi View Post
    I highly doubt anyone's gonna be able to get Suzuki to do a recall, because as Matt has explained, Suzuki would have to not only install a modded push pin, but they'd also have to replace all the damaged clutch parts on their dime. It would cost them a small fortune to do this with every 9 they've sold. I think a better approach would be to try to get them to start making a new push pin and install them from the factory. It wouldn't cost much for them to design and produce a new push pin with the 3 oil channels, and this would permanently cure the clutch shudder issues, and the damage to the other parts it causes.
    I totally agree. Normally a company will only do a recall if there is a safty issue and someone can get hurt or killed. That is why they did do the recall on the fuel rail. It just would be nice if the company would own up to it and not try to say that it is something caused by "owner abuse". I guess it is the price we must pay for riding around and looking so darn cool .

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    Very Active Member futurR's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by grampi View Post
    Matt, have you ever considered taking the proof that your mod actually fixes the shudder problem directly to Suzuki engineering? It would be nice if Suzuki would start incorporating this mod into their new 9s so people aren't having this problem. You certainly should have enough proof to make your case....and there's a slew of people in this site alone who would back you up if you needed it....


    Suzuki is the worst of the big 4 to admit an issue, least alone a recall. Taking this to them would accomplish zero. There are the type to not do anything unless it is there engineers idea. So, not there idea, then it doesn not work and not worth their time because there is no problem. If they do something about it, then they are forced to do a service bulletin at minimum---way too much money involved there. You know they pay attention, just look at the new headlight integrated tach and gear position indicator. They will see this and apply to future models and say they re-designed the clutch--which has nothing to with it other than logevity. See, look at the potential dollars to be made by doing nothing---yet, being japanese, you would think they would see the value in long term customers. Just another day at Suzuki.
    I am almost always working on a bike. If you have questions and need an answer quickly, just call me. 317-507-0940. Always up late. There will be time for sleep when I am dead!

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    Very Active Member Dragonback's Avatar
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    FuturR,
    for those of us that do not know what the pin mod is can you point us to the Thread.. the search on this site is not the best...
    a link would be great...
    I have the occasional shutter and just ordered the sets of plates including wave etc.. (have close to 20k and figure might as well change them.
    but first I hear of Pin mod...

    thanks

  28. #26
    Very Active Member futurR's Avatar
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    Not going to repeat what others have already done, Listan1 did a decent post.

    Post#6
    https://www.m109riders.com/forums/sho...sh+pin+listan1
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    Radio Active Member rynosback's Avatar
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    Great post Matt. I might tear into mine this winter as I'm getting more shutter.
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    Very Active Member STL-TIGER's Avatar
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    Matt fixed my clutch shudder and it is 100% gone. It was happening to me every time I pulled up to a stop light or pulling out of the garage.

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    Very Active Member The HUFF's Avatar
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    Good info, but that line will come right back with the new plate. I don't think that line has as much to do with the shudder as normal wear from the ring that goes around the teeth. I replaced my #6 plate when I put in my new clutch and the line is back but no shudder. I've never had shudder, but did the pin mod.

    In your pic showing number 6 plate you can see a rainbow band running about half way. That says to me that that clutch has been hot, way hot. Which probably means not enough oil. The amount of dirtyness of that plate and in the pics is a sign of a hot clutch too. The only tar like substance on mine was on the wave washer. Was that 6 plate warped at all? What did the fibers look like?
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    Very Active Member futurR's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The HUFF View Post
    Good info, but that line will come right back with the new plate. I don't think that line has as much to do with the shudder as normal wear from the ring that goes around the teeth. I replaced my #6 plate when I put in my new clutch and the line is back but no shudder. I've never had shudder, but did the pin mod.

    In your pic showing number 6 plate you can see a rainbow band running about half way. That says to me that that clutch has been hot, way hot. Which probably means not enough oil. The amount of dirtyness of that plate and in the pics is a sign of a hot clutch too. The only tar like substance on mine was on the wave washer. Was that 6 plate warped at all? What did the fibers look like?


    Ben, in the pic you show of mine. That is the pic from the completely fried clutch of TobyZ's. It was due to misadjustment that fried on his trip home from the meet. Everything was fried, the steel plates were black chrome and you could see your reflection in them they were so bad. That groove has more to do with shudder than you think. Take the seat and #6 plate new. Then sandwich the wave washer between them. Give the seat and #6 a set disatnce between them. Now insert the groove. That wave washer with the groove has now increased the contact distance between the plates---that transfers into less spring tension in the wave washer.
    Now, you say you have had yours back apart since the pin mod. How did the plates look? Was there oil? Was there oil at the wave washer? Did you grind 2 or 3 spots on the pin? The tar substance you describe has always been on the wave washer and the #6 plate, as shown, on everyone I have taken apart. I think it just gets trapped in there and just fries.
    I am almost always working on a bike. If you have questions and need an answer quickly, just call me. 317-507-0940. Always up late. There will be time for sleep when I am dead!

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