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Thread: Put on my G-Man timing retard eliminator and...

  1. #31
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    [email protected]

    is the email I have on file for Jeff, and its still the same on his website
    for those who need to contact him. I personally have had good luck w/
    JSD3M on my 9.
    I would like to try a G-man back to back to see if it really is different ...

    Godzuki

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  3. #32
    Radio Active Member Zoom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Canuk View Post
    No magic in one adding more or less timing than the others..
    Hey Zoom,
    I've been asking if anyone does or does not add more or less timing based on the gear, or do they just send the same (4th gear) signal to 1,2, & 3.
    Not knowing a whole lot about timing; Should he timing in each gear be different. Meaning a different signal/ohm. Would that make it run better than say one that has a different ohm sent to it ?
    No one seems to know.
    Canuk, each gear does have a separate timing map as CBR indicated. But 4th gear has the most aggressive map and will give the most power when used in the other gears. That's why they all simulate 4th gear. You could make a custom one that would make it think it was in one of the other lower 3 gears as well, the manual has the ohm ratings for each gear selection. And any of them would still eliminate the rpm limit in 5th gear.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Chief View Post
    Thanks for posting that. I assume that the JSD TRE is an 'active' TRE because my idle is smooth as buttah. Come to think of it though, my idle is smooth in gear also. The only dislike for me is the hard knocking on accelleration. Apparantly harmless, but unnerving non the less
    Chief, I think all JSD's from the -3 on up were ATRE's. The -2 version may have as well. And if I recall correctly the -4 version just gave the option of switching it off entirely. The A is for Automatic, or automatic sensing of neutral. The earlier ones just sent the signal for 4th gear all the time and gave a fast idle when in neutral.

    If it's knocking under load and it does it a lot, I'd worry about it a little. Mine did it so bad I added octane boost to every other tank to stop it. For some reason when I went to the Cobra pipes the knocking went away. I'm sure you know, but pinging or knocking is a sign of pre-detonation in the engine, which is very hard on rods, bearings and pistons. You can melt a piston if it gets bad enough and for long enough.






  4. #33
    Very Active Member The Chief's Avatar
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    If it's knocking under load and it does it a lot, I'd worry about it a little. Mine did it so bad I added octane boost to every other tank to stop it. For some reason when I went to the Cobra pipes the knocking went away. I'm sure you know, but pinging or knocking is a sign of pre-detonation in the engine, which is very hard on rods, bearings and pistons. You can melt a piston if it gets bad enough and for long enough.[/QUOTE]


    It's been discussed here before and some respected gear heads said no biggie but a loud knocking from an engine can't be good. As much as I like what it does I think I'll remove my TRE
    Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end.

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  6. #34
    Very Active Member Canuk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zoom View Post
    Canuk, each gear does have a separate timing map as CBR indicated. But 4th gear has the most aggressive map and will give the most power when used in the other gears. That's why they all simulate 4th gear. You could make a custom one that would make it think it was in one of the other lower 3 gears as well, the manual has the ohm ratings for each gear selection. And any of them would still eliminate the rpm limit in 5th gear.



    Chief, I think all JSD's from the -3 on up were ATRE's. The -2 version may have as well. And if I recall correctly the -4 version just gave the option of switching it off entirely. The A is for Automatic, or automatic sensing of neutral. The earlier ones just sent the signal for 4th gear all the time and gave a fast idle when in neutral.

    If it's knocking under load and it does it a lot, I'd worry about it a little. Mine did it so bad I added octane boost to every other tank to stop it. For some reason when I went to the Cobra pipes the knocking went away. I'm sure you know, but pinging or knocking is a sign of pre-detonation in the engine, which is very hard on rods, bearings and pistons. You can melt a piston if it gets bad enough and for long enough.

    Zoom,
    I've been looking for an answer to that for a while. Thanks
    I'm wondering if the correct ohm's for each gear was sent instead of the ohm's for 4th gear to all would help reduce some of the knocking many are experiencing. I understand you said 4th is more aggressive, but I'm not sure how why that would be the case. Wouldn't the correct timing for each gear give it the maximum potential instead of timing from another gear.
    Not sure if I'm explaining what I mean well, but it just seems that the right timing/ohm for the right gear would make for a better result. Again, maybe the knocking would go away too.
    I don't know why this hasn't been tried.

  7. #35
    Radio Active Member Zoom's Avatar
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    I'm not sure why someone hasn't tried it either. I really don't know how much difference there is in the timing maps for each gear, but I recall Jeff from JSD saying a long time ago that 4th was the best map. And there has to be some reason that each gear sends a different resistance, since stock there isn't a gear indicator (until the 2010's) so it's really not needed. They could do one resistance for all of the 4 lower gears and another for 5th so 5th would have the rpm limiter to control top speed.

    I would say just based on the performance difference that 4th gear gives it more timing advance, otherwise you wouldn't see the difference in the lower gears. I also think it's odd they retard the timing like that to decrease torque, then add the SET valve to increase it.

    It may fuel it differently depending on the gear selected too. No one has mentioned that possibility that I know of. Or maybe it does something with the SET valve depending on the gear. I'm guessing it's more than just a timing difference.

    I'm at a loss to explain why the Cobra exhaust I have on now doesn't spark knock either. It was so bad with my other exhaust that I kept the TRE turned off on my GiPro most of the time. I put the Cobra pipes on and turned it back on and no knocking whatsoever, no matter what I try. And the power is better with it than my other system.

    And one other tidbit of information. At full throttle, the timing is not retarded in the lower gears. You can see that difference on the dyno sheets that used to be on JSD's website, plus I think the manual mentions it.






  8. #36
    Very Active Member BAD BOY M109R's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Canuk View Post
    Zoom,
    I've been looking for an answer to that for a while. Thanks
    I'm wondering if the correct ohm's for each gear was sent instead of the ohm's for 4th gear to all would help reduce some of the knocking many are experiencing. I understand you said 4th is more aggressive, but I'm not sure how why that would be the case. Wouldn't the correct timing for each gear give it the maximum potential instead of timing from another gear.
    Not sure if I'm explaining what I mean well, but it just seems that the right timing/ohm for the right gear would make for a better result. Again, maybe the knocking would go away too.
    I don't know why this hasn't been tried.


    U just want your motor to have the most hp and tork as possiable , so the mapping in 4th gear is the best one that suzu has programed. U would want the motor to have the most in all gears , not change them for each gear... (cuz if the mapping for 4th gear gives it the most power if U do any other different one u would just be loosing power) am I making any since...
    BONE STOCK

  9. #37
    Very Active Member jimmy450r's Avatar
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    5th gear is like 4th (no retard) but there is a rev limiter which is why you can only get to 135-140 on speed-0
    Im sure suzuki has reasons like limiting the performance for the sane but I dont know, they do it on the busa also
    I have no knock or ping or idle issues just less jerky throttle and better performance

  10. #38
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    Just ordered my gman tre, looking forword to the smoother throttle!!!and the extra umph!!! in the first 3 gears!!!!

  11. #39
    Very Active Member Canuk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zoom View Post
    I'm not sure why someone hasn't tried it either. I really don't know how much difference there is in the timing maps for each gear, but I recall Jeff from JSD saying a long time ago that 4th was the best map. And there has to be some reason that each gear sends a different resistance, since stock there isn't a gear indicator (until the 2010's) so it's really not needed. They could do one resistance for all of the 4 lower gears and another for 5th so 5th would have the rpm limiter to control top speed.

    I would say just based on the performance difference that 4th gear gives it more timing advance, otherwise you wouldn't see the difference in the lower gears. I also think it's odd they retard the timing like that to decrease torque, then add the SET valve to increase it.

    It may fuel it differently depending on the gear selected too. No one has mentioned that possibility that I know of. Or maybe it does something with the SET valve depending on the gear. I'm guessing it's more than just a timing difference.

    I'm at a loss to explain why the Cobra exhaust I have on now doesn't spark knock either. It was so bad with my other exhaust that I kept the TRE turned off on my GiPro most of the time. I put the Cobra pipes on and turned it back on and no knocking whatsoever, no matter what I try. And the power is better with it than my other system.

    And one other tidbit of information. At full throttle, the timing is not retarded in the lower gears. You can see that difference on the dyno sheets that used to be on JSD's website, plus I think the manual mentions it.
    Lots of interesting stuff there.
    Geez. Sending 4th gear signals to the first three gears is great, but it really seems there could be more done to get more out of each gear with a more customized approach to each gear. As you mentioned it may not be just the ohm's to the ECU that is needed, but a combination of things. When the Suzuki engineers restricted/advanced the timing in the first three gears, I guess they could have adjusted the SET valve and who knows what else to work with that change also. That makes it more difficult to return the bike to the place it should have been, or at least how we want it.
    I'm not bent on getting every drip of HP out of the nine, nor do I have the money to do that. However I do like the idea of inexpensive plug in's that have a huge impact on HP and performance. The TRE seems to be a good place for that. Truth is I would be more happy with the TRE as is, if I didn't get the knocking too. That bothers me, and it seems plausible that with a little more focus on exactly the right ohm for each gear more performance and less knock could be achieved. That interests me. !!
    As you stated Zoom, you did eliminate the knock and get more performance by also changing your exhaust. I still have the stock exhaust, so that I should try. I wanted the Raw Taz pipe, but they don't seem to be available anymore, so once I figure out which pipe (among the millions of threads on pipes) is next in line to give the best HP, I may just do that this spring. I've always suspected the stock exhaust was a contributor to the problem. I also lost a lot of backfiring problems when I replaced the fuel filter too.
    I am mechanically inclined, but I'm no mechanic, and I don't have near the free time to try to be, so I need to rely on great posts like yours and others to figure out which way to turn. I appreciate the feedback.

  12. #40
    Radio Active Member Zoom's Avatar
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    Lol, wouldn't it be great to understand why they did what they did on this bike? I'm sure there was a lot of research and testing on it to get the fueling and timing right, but that disparity between the operation of the SET and the lower gear timing retard has always baffled me.

    My other exhaust was a very open system. I used the stock head pipes and fabricated a cone type reducer to take it from there to a 2.5" straight through glass pack muffler, with nothing in between. So it was similar to the Raw system in how freely the system could flow. The Cobra has a much smaller muffler outlet, even combined the two are nowhere near equal to what the home made muffler would flow, so maybe it creates a little more back pressure. The cam timing on these is not overly aggressive but it could have been over-scavenging the cylinders and leaning it out. I tried bumping my Cobra tuner up to the point it was smoking like an old diesel but it would still ping.

    I'm making another set of baffles for it that will have a little more open area and be less restrictive, and I hope that doesn't bring the pinging back. I'll know in a day or two.






  13. #41
    kawzx7
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    I think pretty soon this guy is going to be releasing the G-Man M109r. Just like an M109r but with more hype. :-P

  14. #42
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    Default GMAN TRE

    Hey guys just learning hear. So is what everyone is saying is that even with big intakes cobra fuel processsor and aftermarket pipes you still will tell alot of power or a noticable difference with putting a GMAN TRE on as well. DAMN YOU GUYS ARE SMART IN THIS FORUM!

  15. #43
    Radio Active Member Zoom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jjbrooks44 View Post
    Hey guys just learning hear. So is what everyone is saying is that even with big intakes cobra fuel processsor and aftermarket pipes you still will tell alot of power or a noticable difference with putting a GMAN TRE on as well. DAMN YOU GUYS ARE SMART IN THIS FORUM!
    Any TRE. Just don't get on of those "power adders" they sell on ebay that they say will give you 30 hp.






  16. #44
    Very Active Member Tn_soldier1977's Avatar
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    Just ordered mine! Couldn't get the JSD site to work.
    Some times there's justice, Some times there's just us!

  17. #45
    Active Member mr_nice_guy's Avatar
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    Is there any reason you would need a FC when adding a TRE to a stock bike?

  18. #46
    Radio Active Member Zoom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mr_nice_guy View Post
    Is there any reason you would need a FC when adding a TRE to a stock bike?
    You don't need a fuel controller on a stock bike, or not because you add a TRE. But they can make them run smoother. Not sure I would add one unless you have plans for other intake and exhaust mods.






  19. #47
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    Actually I already have sideburners and a PCIII for my bike I just wanna break in the motor and what not before I put them on, I want to do a before and after dyno session for all my new parts and I was thinking if the TRE is that easy to put on and wouldn't need any fueling I might try and do a compasrison before the pipes etc....

  20. #48

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    Is there an instruction video or step by step with pictures for the gman atre install. I appreciate any help with this.

  21. #49
    Active Member Stalker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Freshlysnipes View Post
    Is there an instruction video or step by step with pictures for the gman atre install. I appreciate any help with this.

    ATRE is easy to install.

    Just unplug the Gear Position Sensor OEM connector and then plug both the male and female ends into the ATRE.

    But if your M109R is 2010 or newer you will want get the X-TRE and not the ATRE.

    The ATRE will not allow the gear position indicator to function properly so it is used only on 2006 - 2009 models.

    The XTRE will have 2 additional wires that need to be spliced in series with one wire coming from your ECU and the XTRE cost 3 times more than the ATRE.

    Honestly your best option is to have your ECU flashed instead.

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