Unusual 2nd gear problem!
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Thread: Unusual 2nd gear problem!

  1. #1

    Default Unusual 2nd gear problem!

    Hi guys, firstly before speaking about my problem I would like to introduce myself quickly.
    My name is Andrey, I am from Ukraine. I have been reading this forum for 4 years (its encyclopedia) but only now made a decision to register but unfortunately due to major problem we are fighting with for 2 weeks now. I already had 2 m109r (so i know all the common problems of this bikes), but at my third and my last m109r we faced a problem. I wouldnt have created this thread before using search... But i really have my hands down and dont know what to do...

    I have 2012 Intruder VZR1800 / boulevard m109r with 2000 miles.

    Mods:
    o2 emulator
    Freedom Combat 2in1 exhaust
    Custom made intake
    PC5

    Problem:

    After installing all the mods and PC5 together we faced a problem that my bike was jerking/shudder/chudder/cutting power on 1-2-3-4 gears, after many and many hours on dyno it seems we fixed all the problem besides the only ONE. My bike is still doing the same on the 2nd gear, we checked everything: power commander couplers, tps, stp, intake pressure and a lot of other things and didnt find something wrong with it, so i started thinking that something is with clutch or transmission.

    Symptoms are: during riding on the 2nd gear and starting accelaration my byke is shuddering on 3k rpms~, then 4k rpms and etc, it may varie. It looks like clutch slips for a few mili seconds under acceleartion. Also during immediate acceleration on 100% opened throttle once i noticed that rpm got quickly at 5k rpms, but my bike didnt make acceleartion, and only after 1 sec i got kicked in ass and started accelartion.

    As I understand even though it looks like a clutch slips problem, it cant it be, because it only happens on the 2nd gear? For the same reason it cant be typical "clutch shudder problem" because it happens only under accel. on the 2nd gear? Also 2nd gear doesnt jump out to the neutral so it shouldnt be a failure of the 2nd gear? I have also found few threads here where ppl had a problem that 2nd gear pumps out and immediate kicks in back, but in that case, shouldnt i have noticed a green light "Neautral" atleast for 1 second?

    Maybe somebody could share his PCV map to check if everything is ok with mine? Or its definately not the problem with PCV mapping? In addition I will try tomorrow to disconnect PCV to check how it will be.

    Here in Ukraine not many proffesional guys with these bikes, so you are my last hope guys.

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    Last edited by Reyand; 4 Weeks Ago at 02:23 PM.

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  3. #2
    Very Active Member UVATom's Avatar
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    Did it do any of this before the mods?

  4. #3
    Super Moderator HyperPete's Avatar
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    Hello Andrey,

    Welcome to the forum! I hope that you find an easy answer to your problem.

    I have a 2008, and I had a similar problem. If I shifted into 2 at low RPM and roll on the throttle, it would jerk as if the clutch was slipping or it was cutting out until I shifted into 3rd gear. Unfortunately, in my case, it was a transmission problem. Maybe you have read about the problem with 2nd gear. It involves a bent shift rod and worn shift forks. In my case, and the case of others, it required a transmission rebuild. The hollow shift rod was replaced with a solid one, and other parts were upgraded too. I also had the gears back-cut while it was apart.

    I hope that this is not the problem with your bike. This seems to happen more with bikes older than 2011.

    - My memory's not as sharp as it used to be. Also, my memory's not as sharp as it used to be.
    - God grant me the senility to forget the people I never liked, the good fortune to run into the ones I do, and the vision to tell the difference.

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  6. #4

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by UVATom View Post
    Did it do any of this before the mods?
    Nope, atleast not from the 1st day

  7. #5

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by HyperPete View Post
    Hello Andrey,

    Welcome to the forum! I hope that you find an easy answer to your problem.

    I have a 2008, and I had a similar problem. If I shifted into 2 at low RPM and roll on the throttle, it would jerk as if the clutch was slipping or it was cutting out until I shifted into 3rd gear. Unfortunately, in my case, it was a transmission problem. Maybe you have read about the problem with 2nd gear. It involves a bent shift rod and worn shift forks. In my case, and the case of others, it required a transmission rebuild. The hollow shift rod was replaced with a solid one, and other parts were upgraded too. I also had the gears back-cut while it was apart.

    I hope that this is not the problem with your bike. This seems to happen more with bikes older than 2011.
    Thanks for a respond. Yeah, I have read a lot of threads about 2nd gear problems, and I really hope that it’s not a problem I have to deal with, but looks like it is 😞

    When you have made a rebuilt, did you put just new oem parts, without any adjustments? And maybe do you have saved the part numbers you used for rebuilt ?
    Last edited by Reyand; 4 Weeks Ago at 03:31 AM.

  8. #6

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    When the 2nd gear kicks out and kicks in, is there any supporting noise for this or something like that ?

  9. #7
    Super Moderator HyperPete's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reyand View Post
    Thanks for a respond. Yeah, I have read a lot of threads about 2nd gear problems, and I really hope that it’s not a problem I have to deal with, but looks like it is 😞

    When you have made a rebuilt, did you put just new oem parts, without any adjustments? And maybe do you have saved the part numbers you used for rebuilt ?
    @FuturR

    I had Matt G. rebuild it for me. He is extremely knowledgeable, and the go-to person for M109R transmission rebuilds in the USA in my opinion. I will contact him via email and mention this thread to him, so he can possibly answer questions for you.

    My bike did not ever actually kick out of gear in 2nd. The surging / slipping or whatever you want to call it sounded like a misfire. We had been trying to figure it out for almost 2 years, thinking it was something else, but then I damaged the engine during a prolonged high-speed run. When the engine was disassembled, he split the cases and found the transmission damage.
    Last edited by HyperPete; 4 Weeks Ago at 08:34 AM.

    - My memory's not as sharp as it used to be. Also, my memory's not as sharp as it used to be.
    - God grant me the senility to forget the people I never liked, the good fortune to run into the ones I do, and the vision to tell the difference.

  10. #8
    Very Active Member k109's Avatar
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    You need to speak to Matt his forum name is FuturR
    06 custom, dripping in chrome....lowered front and rear ....160/280....custom paint....:BOTM AUG 2014

  11. #9
    Super Moderator HyperPete's Avatar
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    Here are photos Matt took when he rebuilt mine. I commented that the shift fork in the first photo did not look very bad to me. This is his reply:

    "You might want to look at that wear again, compare it to the other shift forks in the pic. That is not minor wear. I have seen worse, Those are not scuffs, those are wear grooves ground into the side of the fork. Those should not even be there. The pads at the top of the "U" of the fork are the only points that should be making contact with the gears. Think about it. That fork had to be flexed/mis-aligned far enough that the gear made contact with it. I do agree about the electrical, but there is a thing called "ratcheting". That is when the dogs slip past each other to just engage again with the next one inline. The really bad trans that get false neutrals happen similarly, but the dogs do not engage again. I have felt something like that a very long time ago (in 2008 ) with a 2007LE. It was not exactly like yours, but close--- as I remember it. "
    The second photo is when it was going back together.

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    - My memory's not as sharp as it used to be. Also, my memory's not as sharp as it used to be.
    - God grant me the senility to forget the people I never liked, the good fortune to run into the ones I do, and the vision to tell the difference.

  12. #10

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    Guys thanks a lot for paying attention to my problem! I wish I would be in the USA and giving a glass of beer with you.

    I am on dyno right now, we disconnected the PC5 to check if it’s a problem with fuel map, or PC5 itself, and unfortunately 2nd gear problem is still with me 😞

    P.S. I uploaded graphic from the dyno to show how this shudder, jerking etc looks like.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Click image for larger version. 

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  13. #11

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    Quote Originally Posted by HyperPete View Post
    Here are photos Matt took when he rebuilt mine. I commented that the shift fork in the first photo did not look very bad to me. This is his reply:

    "You might want to look at that wear again, compare it to the other shift forks in the pic. That is not minor wear. I have seen worse, Those are not scuffs, those are wear grooves ground into the side of the fork. Those should not even be there. The pads at the top of the "U" of the fork are the only points that should be making contact with the gears. Think about it. That fork had to be flexed/mis-aligned far enough that the gear made contact with it. I do agree about the electrical, but there is a thing called "ratcheting". That is when the dogs slip past each other to just engage again with the next one inline. The really bad trans that get false neutrals happen similarly, but the dogs do not engage again. I have felt something like that a very long time ago (in 2008 ) with a 2007LE. It was not exactly like yours, but close--- as I remember it. "
    The second photo is when it was going back together.

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    How much money did it take for rebuilding transmission ? And what parts were changed in?
    Last edited by Reyand; 4 Weeks Ago at 01:27 PM.

  14. #12
    Very Active Member UVATom's Avatar
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    For that bike to only have 2000 miles and have a second gear issue that would be hard to believe. It must be a typo or someone was very dishonest when they sold it to you.
    Last edited by UVATom; 4 Weeks Ago at 06:14 PM.

  15. #13
    Super Moderator HyperPete's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reyand View Post
    How much money did it take for rebuilding transmission ? And what parts were changed in?
    Honestly, I am unsure how much just the transmission cost, because I also had to replace a cylinder, a piston, and piston rings. However, I believe that the transmission work was around $1500 US. I think that included having the gears sent out and back-cut.

    I will have to try to find the parts list.

    EDIT: trans machining and aftermarket shift rods/forks: $1000.00.
    Last edited by HyperPete; 4 Weeks Ago at 08:02 PM.

    - My memory's not as sharp as it used to be. Also, my memory's not as sharp as it used to be.
    - God grant me the senility to forget the people I never liked, the good fortune to run into the ones I do, and the vision to tell the difference.

  16. #14

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    Quote Originally Posted by UVATom View Post
    For that bike to only have 2000 miles and have a second gear issue that would be hard to believe. It must be a typo or someone was very dishonest when they sold it to you.
    I am 100% sure the mileage is honest, and I also cant to believe that it might be a trans problem on the bike that has 2000 miles.

    Matt (futurR) responded me to PM, I hope maybe he will get clarity to this problem.
    Last edited by Reyand; 4 Weeks Ago at 10:43 AM.

  17. #15

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    Quote Originally Posted by HyperPete View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Reyand View Post
    How much money did it take for rebuilding transmission ? And what parts were changed in?
    Honestly, I am unsure how much just the transmission cost, because I also had to replace a cylinder, a piston, and piston rings. However, I believe that the transmission work was around $1500 US. I think that included having the gears sent out and back-cut.

    I will have to try to find the parts list.

    EDIT: trans machining and aftermarket shift rods/forks: $1000.00.
    Wow, didn’t know there are companies which producing aftermarket transmission parts for our bikes.

  18. #16

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    Quote Originally Posted by Reyand View Post
    Hi guys, firstly before speaking about my problem I would like to introduce myself quickly.
    My name is Andrey, I am from Ukraine. I have been reading this forum for 4 years (its encyclopedia) but only now made a decision to register but unfortunately due to major problem we are fighting with for 2 weeks now. I already had 2 m109r (so i know all the common problems of this bikes), but at my third and my last m109r we faced a problem. I wouldnt have created this thread before using search... But i really have my hands down and dont know what to do...[IMG class=inlineimg]https://www.m109riders.com/forums/images/smilies/icon_redface.gif[/IMG][IMG class=inlineimg]https://www.m109riders.com/forums/images/smilies/embarrassed.gif[/IMG]

    I have 2012 Intruder VZR1800 / boulevard m109r with 2000 miles.

    Mods:
    o2 emulator
    Freedom Combat 2in1 exhaust
    Custom made intake
    PC5

    Problem:

    After installing all the mods and PC5 together we faced a problem that my bike was jerking/shudder/chudder/cutting power on 1-2-3-4 gears, after many and many hours on dyno it seems we fixed all the problem besides the only ONE. My bike is still doing the same on the 2nd gear, we checked everything: power commander couplers, tps, stp, intake pressure and a lot of other things and didnt find something wrong with it, so i started thinking that something is with clutch or transmission.

    Symptoms are: during riding on the 2nd gear and starting accelaration my byke is shuddering on 3k rpms~, then 4k rpms and etc, it may varie. It looks like clutch slips for a few mili seconds under acceleartion. Also during immediate acceleration on 100% opened throttle once i noticed that rpm got quickly at 5k rpms, but my bike didnt make acceleartion, and only after 1 sec i got kicked in ass and started accelartion.

    As I understand even though it looks like a clutch slips problem, it cant it be, because it only happens on the 2nd gear? For the same reason it cant be typical "clutch shudder problem" because it happens only under accel. on the 2nd gear? Also 2nd gear doesnt jump out to the neutral so it shouldnt be a failure of the 2nd gear? I have also found few threads here where ppl had a problem that 2nd gear pumps out and immediate kicks in back, but in that case, shouldnt i have noticed a green light "Neautral" atleast for 1 second? [IMG class=inlineimg]https://www.m109riders.com/forums/images/smilies/cry.gif[/IMG][IMG class=inlineimg]https://www.m109riders.com/forums/images/smilies/cry.gif[/IMG]

    Maybe somebody could share his PCV map to check if everything is ok with mine? Or its definately not the problem with PCV mapping? In addition I will try tomorrow to disconnect PCV to check how it will be.

    Here in Ukraine not many proffesional guys with these bikes, so you are my last hope guys.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Hello Andrey

    I am Andrey too from Ukraine 🙂 fixed 2 gear 3 times
    5000 miles / 7000 / 9000

    Finally I think I solved the problem: sold m109r 2007 and bought m109r 2017 🙂

  19. #17
    Very Active Member futurR's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lafar View Post
    Hello Andrey

    I am Andrey too from Ukraine 🙂 fixed 2 gear 3 times
    5000 miles / 7000 / 9000

    Finally I think I solved the problem: sold m109r 2007 and bought m109r 2017 🙂
    Replacing them with the same stock gears is not a fix----it will happen again. Gears need to be back cut and the shift rods and shift forks need to be replaced with the aftermarket versions. That is the only true fix.
    I am almost always working on a bike. If you have questions and need an answer quickly, just call me. 317-507-0940. Always up late. There will be time for sleep when I am dead!

  20. #18

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    Quote Originally Posted by futurR View Post
    Replacing them with the same stock gears is not a fix----it will happen again. Gears need to be back cut and the shift rods and shift forks need to be replaced with the aftermarket versions. That is the only true fix.
    well maybe
    but behavior of transmission is different
    you dont have to push hard second gear

    links to aftermarket shift rods and folks?

  21. #19

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    Nice bike bro, unfortunately it is the dreaded second gear shudder. Fix now before the gear selector fails and causes a lot more damage.

  22. #20
    Very Active Member Frotosride's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by futurR View Post
    Replacing them with the same stock gears is not a fix----it will happen again. Gears need to be back cut and the shift rods and shift forks need to be replaced with the aftermarket versions. That is the only true fix.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tux20 View Post
    Nice bike bro, unfortunately it is the dreaded second gear shudder. Fix now before the gear selector fails and causes a lot more damage.
    I know you don't want to believe it but for whatever reason you definitely have the second gear problem and the seemingly backfire you describe is actually the transmission trying to shift into a neutral but between 2nd and 3rd. It will get worse and more rapid in action if you continue to ride with out fixing the issue. Even if you do as I did for a year and just skip second as much as possible, it will get worse.

    Get it fixed now befor a shift fork breaks, you can not clutch out of that situation!
    "Beat it like a red-headed Ford":
    '19 M9 '06 M9
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  23. #21

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tux20 View Post
    Nice bike bro, unfortunately it is the dreaded second gear shudder. Fix now before the gear selector fails and causes a lot more damage.
    We checked the clutch, and it seems that everything is fine, so 99.9% looks like it is transmission.

    Could somebody of you guys provide the part numbers of parts which must be replaced for fixing 2nd gear issue ?
    Last edited by Reyand; 3 Weeks Ago at 04:25 PM.

  24. #22

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    What do you guys think about this kit ?

    https://www.rcsperformanceonline.com...ndercut2-3.htm

  25. #23
    Very Active Member darko1974's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reyand View Post
    What do you guys think about this kit ?

    https://www.rcsperformanceonline.com...ndercut2-3.htm
    Andrey you will need shift forks as well. They are ones that create issues, and im 99% sure you'll find them burned and bent once you take that tranny apart. Good luck with rebuild.
    MOD MANIA

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