Bigger Stator
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Thread: Bigger Stator

  1. #1
    Very Active Member flcusat's Avatar
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    Default Bigger Stator

    Is anyone aware of a bigger stator that could be use on the 9?
    The reason I'm asking is, because I have a Tsukayu fairing and bags with a speakers using a big Hertz HDP4 amp (also had an ARC Audio 600.4 before with the same issue), and although the battery on my bike is due for a change (4 years already), ever since I put the audio system I noticed that by the end of the day the battery doesn't have the same power to turn on the bike like it does after being on the battery tender all night long.
    I already checked the charging system and everything seems normal, so I suspect that between the amp at full blast, Rayney's Knight Rider and the LEDs on the Bike (Some9 Kit), there is not enough power left from the stator to charge the battery properly.

    I just ordered this battery and an OEM battery tray from ebay to modified and install this battery in case is a battery issue, but if the stator capacity is the reason, I don't think this is going to solve the problem.

    https://www.amazon.com/Yuasa-GYZ32HL...ywords=gyz32hl
    2007 M109R, Mods: Avon Air Grips, Custom Derby Cover, Rivco Brake Pedal, TRE.

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    Very Active Member TRod's Avatar
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    There is no high output stator for the 9. However, some rewind companies will wind up higher output versions. The problem is that they would probably have to do it as a one off and it's probably going to be expensive. Once you do that, the regulator will then become an issue since during times of low usage it's stressed more than with the stock stator.

    If you install a voltmeter you can monitor the voltage and see what/when/how the battery is being drained, if it is.
    Last edited by TRod; 1 Week Ago at 10:27 AM.

  4. #3
    Very Active Member Latinrascal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TRod View Post
    Once you do that, the regulator will then become an issue since during times of low usage it's stressed more than with the stock stator.
    Could you elaborate or explain what this means please. I know how the system works and what each component does. ....i guess what is confusing me is the "low usage" aspect that leads to stressing part. What do you mean by low usage? And why would it cause more stress?

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    Very Active Member TRod's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Latinrascal View Post
    Could you elaborate or explain what this means please. I know how the system works and what each component does. ....i guess what is confusing me is the "low usage" aspect that leads to stressing part. What do you mean by low usage? And why would it cause more stress?
    The M109 uses a very common brute force regulation system. Instead of a more expensive and better (IMO) variable magnetic field system (like the alternator on your car and on some bikes), it uses a fixed magnetic field with permanent magnets in the rotor. The system puts out all it can all the time based on RPM.

    The regulator looks at the voltage and is basically a controlled short to ground. That's how the system voltage is controlled, some of it is shorted to ground and the regulator converts it to heat and sheds it. Standard regulators that use SCRs (most) run quite hot. In a matter of minutes they can be too hot to touch. The regulator is designed to shunt (short) only a limited amount of amperage (that is has to convert to heat).

    If you increase the output of the stator then when you are not using all (or as much of) the juice that it can make (remember, it makes all it can all the time) then the regulator has to shunt that extra to ground and convert it to heat and not burn up (or exceed the limits of the internal components ability to carry current). The M109 regulator is designed to short only so much current based on the stock stator output.

    I have seen this problem with the Cavalcade. It has a 500 watt stator (about the biggest that was being installed in the mid 80's and still a large stator) and the regulator wasn't overdesigned at all. The aftermarket replacement stators had a slightly higher output (and one company rewound them with a lot of extra output) and the regs would fail, sometimes within minutes of installing a slightly higher output stator.

    I now use after market regulators that are well overdesigned for the stator output. I also have one that is not only for the higher output but uses MOSFET technology and the regulator runs cool to the touch. If one were able to get a stator wound for more output I would recommend a regulator designed for higher output. There may or may not be any available but you can certainly scab the connectors off the M109 regulator onto the better regulator since all brute force systems use basically the same wiring.

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    Very Active Member Latinrascal's Avatar
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    Ok that makes perfect sense now, thank you very much for taking the time to explain things, its much appreciated.

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    Very Active Member flcusat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TRod View Post
    The M109 uses a very common brute force regulation system. Instead of a more expensive and better (IMO) variable magnetic field system (like the alternator on your car and on some bikes), it uses a fixed magnetic field with permanent magnets in the rotor. The system puts out all it can all the time based on RPM.

    The regulator looks at the voltage and is basically a controlled short to ground. That's how the system voltage is controlled, some of it is shorted to ground and the regulator converts it to heat and sheds it. Standard regulators that use SCRs (most) run quite hot. In a matter of minutes they can be too hot to touch. The regulator is designed to shunt (short) only a limited amount of amperage (that is has to convert to heat).

    If you increase the output of the stator then when you are not using all (or as much of) the juice that it can make (remember, it makes all it can all the time) then the regulator has to shunt that extra to ground and convert it to heat and not burn up (or exceed the limits of the internal components ability to carry current). The M109 regulator is designed to short only so much current based on the stock stator output.

    I have seen this problem with the Cavalcade. It has a 500 watt stator (about the biggest that was being installed in the mid 80's and still a large stator) and the regulator wasn't overdesigned at all. The aftermarket replacement stators had a slightly higher output (and one company rewound them with a lot of extra output) and the regs would fail, sometimes within minutes of installing a slightly higher output stator.

    I now use after market regulators that are well overdesigned for the stator output. I also have one that is not only for the higher output but uses MOSFET technology and the regulator runs cool to the touch. If one were able to get a stator wound for more output I would recommend a regulator designed for higher output. There may or may not be any available but you can certainly scab the connectors off the M109 regulator onto the better regulator since all brute force systems use basically the same wiring.
    Thanks for the detailed explanation Trod.
    I found this people online for an aftermarket regulator. I will contact them and see what they have to offer.
    https://www.rmstator.com/en_ww/produ...1500-2003-2009
    Is this the one you are referring to?
    2007 M109R, Mods: Avon Air Grips, Custom Derby Cover, Rivco Brake Pedal, TRE.

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    Very Active Member flcusat's Avatar
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    I found this explanation between the Shunt vs MOSFET regulators, looking at the video apparently the battery doesn't go as low in charge with the MOSFET regulator compare to the Shunt
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mEr6xSGLC48
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    Very Active Member 60ratrod's Avatar
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    i was about to say that our r/r's sound like shunts. i think the best and most popular SERIES r/r that uses MOSFET is probably the shindegin sh775. i know the triumph guys swap over to them all the time, and if you suggest going with anything else over at thegsresources.com, you may get crucified. basically the difference between the shunt and the series as far as i have been able to understand it from all the reading and videos is they move the excess current to ground much quicker, producing less heat. it's very highly suggested over on the gsr boards to convert to one, especially if you are converting your incandesent lamps to LEDs, as the LEDs use less current. that reduced current demand can actually put some heat back into the stator, and the stator burns up a lot quicker. they saw a lot of stators go well done before they found out about retrofitting an sh775 on to the vintage gs bikes. if i get around to converting all my lamps to LEDs, i'll probably be looking into retrofitting a sh775
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  11. #9
    Very Active Member flcusat's Avatar
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    By the way does someone know what is the maximum amperage on the 109 Charging system?
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    Very Active Member flcusat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 60ratrod View Post
    i was about to say that our r/r's sound like shunts. i think the best and most popular SERIES r/r that uses MOSFET is probably the shindegin sh775. i know the triumph guys swap over to them all the time, and if you suggest going with anything else over at thegsresources.com, you may get crucified. basically the difference between the shunt and the series as far as i have been able to understand it from all the reading and videos is they move the excess current to ground much quicker, producing less heat. it's very highly suggested over on the gsr boards to convert to one, especially if you are converting your incandesent lamps to LEDs, as the LEDs use less current. that reduced current demand can actually put some heat back into the stator, and the stator burns up a lot quicker. they saw a lot of stators go well done before they found out about retrofitting an sh775 on to the vintage gs bikes. if i get around to converting all my lamps to LEDs, i'll probably be looking into retrofitting a sh775
    Thanks for the info.
    This is very interesting. It looks like the 775 falls into the Three Phase Open Regulator category, that actually opens the stator inputs once the battery is fully charge, so no excess of current is shorted to ground and not heat is generated.
    Last edited by flcusat; 1 Week Ago at 08:12 AM.
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    Very Active Member TRod's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by flcusat View Post
    Thanks for the info.
    This is very interesting. It looks like the 775 falls into the Three Phase Open Regulator category, that actually opens the stator inputs once the battery is fully charge, so no excess of current is shorted to ground and not heat is generated.
    According to the manual, the system puts out about 400 watts at 5K RPM. That's roughly 30 amps output. At normal road speed it would be less. If we assume the output is pretty linear vs RPM, at 4K the output will be about 27 amps.

    The 775 appears to be an open type. However, it's only rated to 14 amps with no cooling. According to the website the larger capacity units are under development.

    The units I sell for the Cavalcade are rated to 40 amps because of the 500 watt system.

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    Very Active Member 60ratrod's Avatar
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    The other popular unit over at gsr is a compufire. But since the current production and demands are lower on a carbed bike where the smartest parts are the ignitor, r/r, and possibly rider, the 775 is the perfect fit. From everything that has been posted and reported over at gsr, the 775s barely get warm. Is 14a with no cooling a big issue?
    Last edited by 60ratrod; 1 Week Ago at 02:09 AM.
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    Very Active Member flcusat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TRod View Post
    According to the manual, the system puts out about 400 watts at 5K RPM. That's roughly 30 amps output. At normal road speed it would be less. If we assume the output is pretty linear vs RPM, at 4K the output will be about 27 amps.

    The 775 appears to be an open type. However, it's only rated to 14 amps with no cooling. According to the website the larger capacity units are under development.

    The units I sell for the Cavalcade are rated to 40 amps because of the 500 watt system.
    Hey TRod, where in the manual did you find the wattage number, and how you got to that 30 Amps at 400 Watts?

    Here is what I found on page 10-10 under electrical system:
    "Regulated Voltage (Charging Output): 14.0 - 15.5 V at 5000 r/min"

    So if the maximum voltage is 15.5 Volts at 400 Watts the maximum amperage should be at 25.8 Amps.
    Now the main fuse is 30 Amps, so I expect the maximum current flowing through it, be at least 10 to 20% less than that, which should be between 24 and 27 Amps.

    I'm pretty sure that I had read here in the forum before, that the charging system maximum current was 26 Amps, so my amperage calculation are about the same value.
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    Very Active Member Sayonara's Avatar
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    there is a high output stator and rectifier. heres what i have. https://ricksmotorsportelectrics.com/results/


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    Very Active Member flcusat's Avatar
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    Thank you for sharing Sayonara. Do you have the specs for them?
    I did visit their site this morning and saw these, but couldn't find any specs.

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    Very Active Member TRod's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by flcusat View Post
    Hey TRod, where in the manual did you find the wattage number, and how you got to that 30 Amps at 400 Watts?

    Here is what I found on page 10-10 under electrical system:
    "Regulated Voltage (Charging Output): 14.0 - 15.5 V at 5000 r/min"

    So if the maximum voltage is 15.5 Volts at 400 Watts the maximum amperage should be at 25.8 Amps.
    Now the main fuse is 30 Amps, so I expect the maximum current flowing through it, be at least 10 to 20% less than that, which should be between 24 and 27 Amps.

    I'm pretty sure that I had read here in the forum before, that the charging system maximum current was 26 Amps, so my amperage calculation are about the same value.
    The watts are on page 11-31. You would have to figure amps at the lowest expected voltage, 12. That actually makes it 33 amps.

    Don't fudge on the capacity of the regulator. The current that it carries doesn't go through any fuses so the main fuse size isn't relevant.

  19. #17
    Very Active Member TRod's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by flcusat View Post
    Thank you for sharing Sayonara. Do you have the specs for them?
    I did visit their site this morning and saw these, but couldn't find any specs.
    That regulator is the same one I sell for the Cavalcade. It's a MOSFET type. It just has the m109 connectors on it.

    Quote Originally Posted by 60ratrod View Post
    The other popular unit over at gsr is a compufire. But since the current production and demands are lower on a carbed bike where the smartest parts are the ignitor, r/r, and possibly rider, the 775 is the perfect fit. From everything that has been posted and reported over at gsr, the 775s barely get warm. Is 14a with no cooling a big issue?
    The GS bikes had pretty low output systems.

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    Very Active Member 60ratrod's Avatar
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    that's why I asked the question about the 14a no cooling being an issue. my only major experience with bikes is the vintage stuff with the 81 kz1000 and 81 gs650g that I had. better to find this stuff out now than doing it later and screwing everything up because I didn't have the information
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    Very Active Member flcusat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TRod View Post
    That regulator is the same one I sell for the Cavalcade. It's a MOSFET type. It just has the m109 connectors on it.
    Is there any real advantage on upgrading to this regulator other than the advantage of MOSFET vs Shunt?
    Should I expect to have an increase on amperage from the charging system to compensate for my audio gear load once I replace the stock regulator with this one?
    Also, does this regulator mounts in the stock position or an adapter needs to be created?

    Thanks in advance.
    Last edited by flcusat; 4 Days Ago at 08:02 AM.
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    Very Active Member TRod's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by flcusat View Post
    Is there any real advantage on upgrading to this regulator other than the advantage of MOSFET vs Shunt?
    Should I expect to have an increase on amperage from the charging system to compensate for my audio gear load once I replace the stock regulator with this one?
    Also, does this regulator mounts in the stock position or an adapter needs to be created?

    Thanks in advance.
    Nothing changes except the regulator runs cool to the touch.

  23. #21
    Very Active Member 60ratrod's Avatar
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    and if it's a true series regulator, it will help the stator last longer because it will switch to ground faster, especially if you are running LEDs. LEDs on a shunt will actually cause the stator to run hotter because the shunt r/r cannot run fast enough to ground with the reduced current demand, at least if you are running replacement LEDs inplace of regular bulbs that don't utilize an LED controller
    Current Rigs:
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    Very Active Member TRod's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 60ratrod View Post
    and if it's a true series regulator, it will help the stator last longer because it will switch to ground faster, especially if you are running LEDs. LEDs on a shunt will actually cause the stator to run hotter because the shunt r/r cannot run fast enough to ground with the reduced current demand, at least if you are running replacement LEDs inplace of regular bulbs that don't utilize an LED controller
    As I understand the "series" regulators, they do not shunt to ground. They leave the stator legs open and add them as needed to control charging. In that case, they can make a stator last longer because in a shunt system the stator is under 100% stress all the time, regardless of system demand. By leaving the legs open until needed, or having them be used only as much as needed, there will be times when the stator windings are under less stress and it should last longer because it's producing less heat.

    The difference between a SCR and MOSFET shunt regulator matters not the stator. The MOSFET makes less heat because it has ultra low on resistance. The Ricks hot-shot regulator is still a shunt type.

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