Question for those using the short Spectre cone filters [Archive] - M109Riders.com

: Question for those using the short Spectre cone filters



Medic1210
11-29-2006, 09:01 AM
For those of you that are using the Spectre filters for your bottlefed air mod, are you sure we're supposed to oil them? I know it sounds dumb since they're cotton fibre filters, but when I bought mine, I looked at the package, and nowhere on it was there a mention of oiling the filter or if the filter came pre-oiled and ready for use. If you look at the larger Power-Adder filters, their package states "Pre-Oiled and Ready for Use" and there are instructions to clean and oil them every 6 months. Even the cleaner/oiling kit by Spectre does not mention the small profile cone filters on their list of uses. It says "Use this Air Filter Recharge Kit on any Spectre PowerAdder High Performance Cotton Fibre Air Filter. PowerAdder air filters are washable and reuseable and add horsepower to your engine!" The pics on the box only show the P4 and P5 PowerAdders and some round element filters. Nowhere does it mention the short cone filters. I oiled my filter before I installed it, but I can't help but wonder since neither the oil kit nor the filter package itself says any single thing about needing oil or being rechargeable. Same thing with the crankcase breather filters. They're cotton fibre, but do not mention needing oil or being able to clean/reuse them. I oiled my breather filters too though. For those not sure... these are the filters I'm referring to.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v335/Medic1210/P1060321.jpg

JUtah
11-29-2006, 02:26 PM
Air is flowing out of the Crankcase through that Filter... There is a pretty good chance it is being oiled for you.

Medic1210
11-29-2006, 03:35 PM
Air is flowing out of the Crankcase through that Filter... There is a pretty good chance it is being oiled for you.


Why do you say that? I thought putting a breather on the hose alleviated that problem. Besides, I'm talking about the larger filters, and whether or not they are supposed to be oiled or if they can be cleaned and re-used.

RLS
11-29-2006, 06:26 PM
I had e-mailed Spectre about this and the reply was that thay come with oil already on. :bigthumbsup: :bigthumbsup:

Bob

sledzep01
11-29-2006, 08:01 PM
I would not let there bad package designs and documentation stop you from oiling them.
They need it and should get it.

Sledep

Dragon
11-29-2006, 08:12 PM
I sprayed mine....but probably put to much on em. It sneezed and blew some oil on the pipes¬* ¬*:redfaced:¬* so I would go real easy on em

JUtah
11-29-2006, 08:22 PM
Why do you say that?¬* I thought putting a breather on the hose alleviated that problem.¬* Besides, I'm talking about the larger filters, and whether or not they are supposed to be oiled or if they can be cleaned and re-used.


On the big ones, yes they are pre-oiled but I would oil them anyway as they seem kind of dry.... They are intended to be cleaned and re-used, and spectre has a cleaner/oiler kit you can get at Auto Zone or Pep boyz.

On the small ones, the reason I say that is that there is postive pressure in the crankcase that vents through those lines. For emission reasons they route those lines into your air intake so that you will burn off any oil vapor in the engine. Putting a filter on there and letting it breathe out into the open air is no big deal but there is inevitably going to be oil vapor/gasses¬* coming through that filter...

Ride your bike hard one day with that setup then take a wiff of the small filter when you come to a stop.

Medic1210
11-30-2006, 12:06 AM
On the big ones, yes they are pre-oiled but I would oil them anyway as they seem kind of dry.... They are intended to be cleaned and re-used, and spectre has a cleaner/oiler kit you can get at Auto Zone or Pep boyz.


I bought that oil kit.. That's part of the reason for this post, since it only mentions using it on the PowerAdder line, which are the bigger ones. It doesn't mention anything about the small cone filters. I would personally email Spectre about it, but their website is useless for support. Their entire Support section is empty, stating more will be added soon. No link to contact them is anywhere on their site.

JUtah
11-30-2006, 09:30 AM
I clean and oil the large filters... And I don't worry about the small ones, at least not yet.
Oil vapor is blowing out of those so they eventually will need cleaned. When I finally have to clean them I will put a very light coating of oil on them.

Never tried Spectre's support... but I hate to hear that... nothing worse then a company with whom you cannot communicate!¬* :verymad:

Oil Doc
11-30-2006, 09:17 PM
Those filters are a "Wetted Gauze" type filter and are meant to be oiled, EVEN the little ones as when you shut the bike down, air goes back in the tube, so in that case, no filter, dirty air entering crankcase.

Those filters CAN be over oiled. They are not a very good filter for keeping dirt out when oiled to the manufacturers recommendation, but a little extra oil will help aid in filtering although it defeats the purpose of the filter for increased flow.

If you send me the exact dimensions of the filter, including air horn diameter and both ends of the taper, I can see if there is a Nano-Fiber filter available for it. The Nano-Fiber filters flow as good as the wetted gauze and filter up to 50 times better.

Bob

Oil Doc
11-30-2006, 09:30 PM
Almost forgot.... It does look Real Good !

steve j
12-01-2006, 12:51 AM
I know lots who do not run a filter on the crankcase vent, if you are not overfilled and don't have much blow by (bad rings) it is not going to shoot much of anything out and I never have seen a motor hurt by it sucking anything in it and even if that were a worry there is usually a screen under the area the breather enters the motor that is wetted with oil to stop that. some people have run a small aluminum or plastic catch can at the end of the hose leaving it vented of course but not filtered. that will catch any drippings you might have.

Oil Doc
12-01-2006, 07:35 AM
You've never seen a "sanded" engine ? I have seen many over the years. The whole idea is to keep the engine internals as clean as possible. Catching any dirt before it enters the engine is key rather than handling it once it is in there. Once dirt enters an engine, it IS causing damage, no matter how minute, before it can be removed. I guess I just look at it from the stand of creating Longevity of Equipment.

That is why I haven't retired my work van with 339,000 very hard miles on it yet and it has never had any internal engine work. Not even injectors as I use a concentrated fuel additive to help keep them clean and working properly. Use the same treatment on my bike too.

JUtah
12-01-2006, 01:21 PM
You've never seen a "sanded" engine ?¬* I have seen many over the years. The whole idea is to keep the engine internals as clean as possible. Catching any dirt before it enters the engine is key rather than handling it once it is in there. Once dirt enters an engine, it IS causing damage, no matter how minute, before it can be removed. I guess I just look at it from the stand of creating Longevity of Equipment.

That is why I haven't retired my work van with¬* 339,000 very hard miles on it yet and it has never had any internal engine work. Not even injectors as I use a concentrated fuel additive to help keep them clean and working properly. Use the same treatment on my bike too.


This could easily be remedied by a PCV valve like is used on cars... if someone were worried about it...
The large air filter and small one we are using on the Crank Case vent look to be the same construction, So if the little one cant keep dust/dirt out then we have bigger problems to worry about with the large filter that is dumping tons of air into the intake.

Is it the best filter on the market?? Maybe not... Who knows, but I believe it is adequately performing its intended function, which is to keep dust and dirt particles out of my motor.

norman
12-01-2006, 06:46 PM
i was useing the small crome spectre air filter and i just change to these spectre air filter`s http://www.powerflowracing.com/spectre-prtdetail.asp?PD=716 , they are alot bigger and cost about 4.00 more then the crome one`s. plus my 9 is red . norman

bob109
12-01-2006, 07:51 PM
Wetted Gauze Filters have been around for moons and their popularity grew with the Foreign Car generation because of the underhood aesthetics of chrome tubes and various fiber colors available. Those same filters such as the Spectres that folks are using for big air kits for cycles require oiling. Someone mentioned about over-oiling! Depending how the filter is mounted any excess oil will settle to the bottom edge of the filter and can be wiped off with a paper towel. Spectre sells their own brand of filter oil but you can use K&N etc. without adversely impacting the filters ability to do its job. Stock Car Racers who run on clay and dirt tracks use K&N etc and spray their filters with Dextron II automatic transmission oil/fluid! It's pink in color and does the same job as filter oils. If anyone is going to have the potential for "foreign particle" induction into their motor, those forks are at the top of the list when it comes to protecting their investments! Bottom line...."if it is Gauze", oil it!

Medic1210
12-01-2006, 08:12 PM
i was useing the small crome spectre air filter and i just change to these spectre air filter`s http://www.powerflowracing.com/spectre-prtdetail.asp?PD=716 , they are alot bigger and cost about 4.00 more then the crome one`s. plus my 9 is red . norman


Actually, there doesn't appear to be any more surface area exposed for filtering compared to the small cones on my bike. Since the small cones also have filtering surface area in the center, their actual surface area is pretty much the same as one like yours that is closed in the center. If you had gotten the PowerAdder filter, you would have more surface area since they are opened in the center.

This is the one I'm talking about. It's the PowerAdder P4. Personally, I think it would look better than the one you got on your bike since it's got the chrome too. http://www.powerflowracing.com/spectre-prtdetail.asp?PD=671

Oil Doc
12-01-2006, 08:18 PM
I believe the Edelbrock Pro Flo 1000 Series is a Heart shaped filter and looks great on the 109.

Someone from this forum sent me the pics of their bike with those units ob and it really looked good sitting right between the V of the Jugs.

Many people over the years have used ATF and just regular oil for gauze type and foam filters. The problem there lies in that the Intended product for gauze and foam filters has a Tackifier which make the oil sticky and collects dirt. This tackifier will also allow over oiling of the filter that is not as noticeable.

I have had many people throw out their $50+ K&N's when I suggested to them to take a very clean white T-Shirt, spray a little Pledge on it and wipe downstream of the filter to check for dirt.

After running a K&N on our Late Model Dirt car and noticing the dirt in the throat of the carb, we went to a paper filter with a foam wrap. Problem fixed and we went to a track Championship that year.

Even K&N's liturature says that the filter does better as it gets dirtier. I can add a couple HP by changing oil so sanding an engine for a couple HP is not worth it to me.

Medic1210
12-01-2006, 08:23 PM
This could easily be remedied by a PCV valve like is used on cars... if someone were worried about it...
The large air filter and small one we are using on the Crank Case vent look to be the same construction, So if the little one cant keep dust/dirt out then we have bigger problems to worry about with the large filter that is dumping tons of air into the intake.



I don't think Oil Doc was indicating the small breather filters are inadequate... he was referring to running no filtration at all on the breather hose as someone else mentioned. He also indicated that the small breather filters require oil just as the large cones do to filter adequately.

Oil Doc
12-01-2006, 08:27 PM
correct medic.... anything is better than nothing and they do need to be oiled properly.

steve j
12-01-2006, 09:34 PM
never seen anything ingested through the crank breather or it causing a "sanded" engine even without any filter media. If an engine gets "sanded" you better start looking at the air filter or lack thereof. Just like Robert Hill mentioned above I have run bikes with no filter at the crank breather for 10's of thousands of miles through some of the worse conditions and never had any engine wear problems. I have a 99' ZRX 1100 with 60k on it with perfect compression and been running without a crank breather or an airbox just K & N pod filters straight to the carbs. I have never seen a K & N type filter oil with any "tack" either, it's just thin mineral based oil. Granted a wetted gauze filter will flow better but not filter better than stock paper filters and oiled foam filter will filter better but not flow better than stock paper elements. servicing the filter regularly is a must. I have even used Amsoil air filters on a few cars of mine, basically a foam oiled filter like a Uni Filter which uses a high tack oil. they should last a lifetime but they eventually ripped at the seams. Almost anything is going to flow better than the 109's stock little paper filter, a larger paper filter would be good if it could be incorporated to an intake system.

JUtah
12-01-2006, 09:43 PM
What would your definition of "Regular" maintenance be?
I have washed and oiled my filters 2 times in about 8000 miles.

Oil Doc
12-01-2006, 09:46 PM
That is a whole other question in itself.... Almost like defining "Normal" riding conditions for regular maintenance and oil changes.

JUtah
12-01-2006, 09:49 PM
You have to have a some sort of conservative guidlines under "Typical" conditions...

I know the manual for the Spectre and K&N filters shows that you clean and oil them FAR less often then I have been... but I figure the cleaning/oil kit is cheaper then engine rebuilds.

The same reason I have been changing out my Amsoil at 3500 to 4000 miles...

Medic1210
12-01-2006, 10:04 PM
You have to have a some sort of conservative guidlines under "Typical" conditions...

I know the manual for the Spectre and K&N filters shows that you clean and oil them FAR less often then I have been... but I figure the cleaning/oil kit is cheaper then engine rebuilds.

The same reason I have been changing out my Amsoil at 3500 to 4000 miles...


The Spectre oil kit and filters recommend cleaning and oiling every 6 months. No indication of miles in their suggested interval. I guess that's as conservative as you can get.

JUtah
12-01-2006, 10:26 PM
Yep... 6 months. I figured I put way too many miles on the bike to wait 6 months per cleaning, which is why I have cleaned them twice within that specified interval... (Didn't install the Air intake until about the second month of ownership)

I am already pushing the 10,000 mile mark after 8 months of ownership. My plan was to clean and oil the filters when I change Motor Oil, which seemed good... Now I'm wondering if that is frequent enough. :dontknow:

Oil Doc
12-01-2006, 10:33 PM
It may be possible that they are going on the statistics of average miles riden per year which is 5000 in a recent survey.

Just like changing oil, depends on how it is ridden and the conditions it is ridden in. Dust, dirt, high heat, extended high RPM, City traffic all play roles in maintenance.

Remember though, every time you wash that filter, you are taking away some of the gauze.

Medic1210
12-01-2006, 10:42 PM
Yep... 6 months. I figured I put way too many miles on the bike to wait 6 months per cleaning, which is why I have cleaned them twice within that specified interval... (Didn't install the Air intake until about the second month of ownership


But remember that these filters are designed for cars, which it's not uncommon at all to put well over 6 or 8000 miles in 6 months. That may sound like a lot of miles for a bike, but for a car, it's about average. The 6 month recommended interval is probably short for a bike.

steve j
12-02-2006, 12:34 AM
That is a whole other question in itself.... Almost like defining "Normal" riding conditions for regular maintenance and oil changes.


I would say normal for an air filter would be not much wet weather or dusty climates, anything that involves these on a "regular" (every day maybe?) basis would be extreme. As far as motor oil the temperature the vehicle is operated under and type of driving like stop and go and racing would be the extreme but cruising around sounds normal. I don't think it would hurt anything to pull the air filter on any vehicle at every oil change for an inspection/cleaning. :bigthumbsup:

JUtah
12-02-2006, 02:19 AM
But remember that these filters are designed for cars, which it's not uncommon at all to put well over 6 or 8000 miles in 6 months.¬* That may sound like a lot of miles for a bike, but for a car, it's about average.¬* The 6 month recommended interval is probably short for a bike.


Possibly true, but in a car they are under the hood, at least a little protected from the elements and some of the big stuff... such as bugs,¬* U/V rays, etc....¬* (Never find bug guts in my car filters when I change em)

On the bikes, these filters are right out there... exposed...

Did we ever answer your original question??¬* :D

Medic1210
12-02-2006, 02:24 AM
Did we every answer your original question?? :D




Well, I had oiled them before I installed them. I was just wanting confirmation that I made the right choice. It sounds like I did. :bigthumbsup:

norman
12-02-2006, 08:33 AM
medic those filters you are showing with the krome ends, i was looking at them in the store also when i brought the flat end filters, they are twice as heavy and twice the size of the ones i brought . they are too big for the bike. the flat end filter is twice as big as the small one`s with the krome end`s that everyone else is using and weight less. when i was using the smaller krome filter`s , i didn`t really hear them breathing , with the new flat end , these breath.

Medic1210
12-02-2006, 09:05 AM
medic those filters you are showing with the krome ends, i was looking at them in the store also when i brought the flat end filters, they are twice as heavy¬* and¬* twice the size of the ones i brought . they are too big for the bike. the flat end filter is twice as big as the small one`s with the krome end`s that everyone else is using and weight¬* less. when i was using the smaller krome filter`s , i didn`t really hear them breathing , with the new flat end , these breath.


You may have been looking at the PowerAdder P5. Those things are real big. The P4 is the same size as the ones you got. As for them breathing... Well, the little ones breathe too. I can hear a distinct sucking sound now when cranked. The surface area of the small cones is pretty much the same (maybe identical) to the large flat top cones, so they're gonna breathe just as well. :bigthumbsup: